or Connect
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › Yes Virgina, There is a difference in USB cables
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Yes Virgina, There is a difference in USB cables - Page 14

post #196 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelin Al View Post

Best thing I have ever read here...bravo!


Congratulations! You've received the Head-Fi "Digger Distinction Award", for reviving a 2 year old thread.

post #197 of 279
I would like to add my thoughts on this. Digital transmission is on/off. unless you are using a sub par cable, it will work as intended. Else this post woul have subtle changes in type. A part of an "A" might be missing, or a comma would appear to be a period even though I typed a comma.

That said, I bet many USB cables are actually just sub par standard. This will lead to miniscule error correction being applied by the two devices talking. You will still get all digital information through the cable. Now, depending on the way the two devices communicate to each other what info needs to be sent again, and how fast this eec is being applied might determine how smooth the "idle" of the dac is.

Car analogies are fun. So a working and to spec usb will result in a smooth idle, where as one with very sub par copper might rsult in a loping idle? One doesn't know how this affects the dac performance in terms of timing.

The company I work for designs high speed military computer based on Intel and PowerPC chips. They say that every time signals are sent per voltage through copper or even traces on a pcb, the signal will degrade. They explained that one cannot place a cpu more than 12" inches away from a bridge or high speed pci express slot without extra boosters to reboost the signal. This introduces latency into the signal. Its all very miniscule, but it can add up in a path from input device to cpu to game to cpu to audio engine to graphics card to cpu to monitor jadda jadda.

He also said that USB 2.0 and below is not very suspectible to cable problems, because speeds are quite slow. Even USB3 or HDMI isn't affected very much by this. Cables like Thunderbolt cables need to be "pretty good" built so they work. I asked about my car analogy about ecc and he smiled and said: "Then it must be a very very crappy and primitive dac from 1980" but also said: "Well, oscillations and clock problems in standard PC spread spectrum clocking methods are very complicated. Basically the entire system bus varies in speed constantly. This method was introduced so EMI measurements are "better" and cheap PCB and system components and methods can be used to pass emi inspections and standards. Some bios can turn off ssc and this makes for a "faster" system." Then he started ranting about Intel and SSC but I didn't understand a word of it and started this post. He is still shaking his head over there smily_headphones1.gif

The same schematics and layout guy soldered nichi caps and other totl components into his headfone amp, while uprading the op amps.

Conclusion: Everything makes a difference in some way. But it is never as simple as "its digital either it works or it doesnt". I mean it does, but it doesn't show the complete picture.

Personally I think usb cables, if properly built will "just work". The sonic differences will not be there if its a good cable. YMMV, and I hope it does so we have enjoyment in these threads to discuss this stuff. As long as you listen to the music once in a while instead of to the system, the world will continue to revolve. smily_headphones1.gif

edit: ok i didn't look at the date ofnthe first post. smily_headphones1.gif
Edited by ev13wt - 1/10/13 at 3:19am
post #198 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

You know what would be interesting, stop looking at the USB cable with an audio perspective and look at it from a PC perspective. Make a USB 3.0 cable using silver and send data to an external storage device as a speed test. Compare it with an average cable. If the average speed over a hundred tests changed, then we know this isn't snake oil. If it increased with the silver by about 5 percent or so, then it is worth it. 

 

That's ridiculous. The transmission speed is controlled by the USB standard, not the material the cable is made out of!

 

Audiophile USB cables are snake oil. All you need the cable to do is transmit the data without corrupting it. Any cable that doesn't cause data errors is fine. And that includes the $0.77 Monoprice cables.

post #199 of 279

I'm not sure why this thread is being resurrected.

There has been a similar thread, that went on for a lot more pages, and was eventually locked.

post #200 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post
 

 

That's ridiculous. The transmission speed is controlled by the USB standard, not the material the cable is made out of!

 

Audiophile USB cables are snake oil. All you need the cable to do is transmit the data without corrupting it. Any cable that doesn't cause data errors is fine. And that includes the $0.77 Monoprice cables.

Well my Furutech Formula 2 USB cable just arrived. I plugged it in and I can hear more straight off.

 

The cable should improve in time as it runs in. At the moment stuff like cymbal taps are clearer. Chimes sound ore like chimes than chime sounding unclear noises.

 

It's not a complete sound signature changing, because the source, and headphones are still the same. However on day one it is enough to make me feel I don't want to return the item.

 

The point is that 1 and 0 going along the cable do get corrupted, or become indefinable. When the data is complied by the DAC some is missing, but the music can be reproduced still.

 

My Grado SR225e and Meridian Explorer are getting a wiff of hi-fi about them now.

 

(NB Anyone thinking of making a comment about the thread being old - do I look like I care.)

post #201 of 279

The problem with your theory is that if the cable was dropping 0's and 1's the DAC would mute and play nothing because the data was corrupt.

post #202 of 279

I have an MSc in Music Tech: no it wouldn't.


Edited by GreenBow - 7/11/15 at 4:42pm
post #203 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post
 

The problem with your theory is that if the cable was dropping 0's and 1's the DAC would mute and play nothing because the data was corrupt.

Not if it's just dropping an occasional bit here and there. That having been said, the data rates are so pathetically trivial for PCM over USB that any remotely standards-compliant cable won't have the slightest difficulty transmitting without error.

post #204 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenBow View Post
 

Jesus Christ. I have an MSc in Music Tech:

 

 

I am worried by your suggestion that USB cables need to burn in

Quote:
The cable should improve in time as it runs in.

 

I am certain I have never seen any evidence for this!

post #205 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl View Post
 

Not if it's just dropping an occasional bit here and there. That having been said, the data rates are so pathetically trivial for PCM over USB that any remotely standards-compliant cable won't have the slightest difficulty transmitting without error.

 

 

Archimago has tested several USB cables including a 17' rat cable made up of two cheapo 6' cables and an extender and found they all performed exactly the same

post #206 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
 

 

 

Archimago has tested several USB cables including a 17' rat cable made up of two cheapo 6' cables and an extender and found they all performed exactly the same

That doesn't surprise me at all. As I said, I wouldn't expect any remotely decent USB cable to have any difficulty with USB audio.

post #207 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenBow View Post

Jesus Christ. I have an MSc in Music Tech: no it wouldn't.

Hope you didn't actually pay anyone for that degree.

se
post #208 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post


I am worried by your suggestion that USB cables need to burn in.

Funny how they can never say exactly what changes when they "run in."

se
post #209 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl View Post
 

Not if it's just dropping an occasional bit here and there. That having been said, the data rates are so pathetically trivial for PCM over USB that any remotely standards-compliant cable won't have the slightest difficulty transmitting without error.

 

 

The standard for Bit Error Rate on a USB link is from 1 bit error in every ten to the tenth bits to one 1 bit error in every 10 to the 12th data bits.

 

A 44/16 stereo audio link operates at approximately 1.4 milliion bits per second or  1.4 times 10 to the sixth bits.  Using the lower standard, that means one error bit every 7070 seconds of operation or just about two hours.  Using the higher standard increases that by a factor of 100 to one error every 200 hours or just over every 8 days. Due to data formatting overhead, these numbers are a little higher than actual but are a good indication of the size of the alleged problem.

 

In short the presumption that a listener will actually hear a bit error on a standards-compliant USB link ranges from totally ludicrous to absolutely insane.

post #210 of 279

from totally ludicrous to absolutely insane, so you're saying we should expect many audiophiles to still make that claim.

:ph34r:

 

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Sound Science
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › Yes Virgina, There is a difference in USB cables