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24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded! - Page 112

post #1666 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

Here is my woofer.

 

 

 

Hmmm. Not up to audiophile standard just yet. Maybe after some burn-in frequency response will change to handle >20KHz.


Edited by Digitalchkn - 6/10/14 at 6:08pm
post #1667 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

At some point it becomes radio waves and your stereo can receive it again, right?!

 

My stereo now only receives hi-rez.

post #1668 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

Here is my woofer.

 

What happened to it's eyes?  What is this thing called?  Is it yours bigshot?  Have you burn it in yet?

post #1669 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyd View Post
 

 

Having passed my masters in digital signal processing with flying colors I respectfully disagree with you and that link.  I can easily fit an infinite number of near sine waves into a set of samples at twice its frequency without even introducing the concept of sample phase.  Introducing sample phase gives me yet another infinite set of this time absolutely perfect sine waves to choose from.  Of course this assumes nobody cares about phase either in addition to amplitude.  In fact, as sample phase approaches integer multiples of pi the variety of near-perfect sine waves that fit the samples approaches infinity.  What this means is your filter must be dead nuts perfect to even have a chance of reconstructing one of an infinite number of phase shifted sine waves that 'might' be correct but absolutely is not with inverse probability to sample phase.  

 

Sure, mathematically only one wave fits if: 1) sample phase is not a multiple of pi and 2) it is an absolute perfect sine wave and 3) you are assuming perfect brick wall filters with zero phase shift.

 Unfortunately none of these conditions even remotely represent a real system in any way.  Yours is a straw man argument that I won't argue with anymore... you can make believe whatever you want.


Funny, how you can put all these signals through AD/DA conversion and recover them without problems.  If you have an exact 22.050 khz sine wave, and you put another one in there, you could say you have two, of course you would have one twice as big.  Unless you put in one out of phase in which case the samples of the new composite waveform would be different than before the addition.   So no without a masters in DSP I don't get what you are positing here.  I do get that the equipment works as it is said to work. 

post #1670 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalchkn View Post
 

 

 

Can we elaborate on the term "quality equipment"? I hope there is an understanding that the dynamic range of waveforms shown on analog scopes is nowhere near that of even 16 bits.

 

There is no doubt in my mind the video is a great introduction into the subject. There are other details at play that requires more in-depth look. Hence, professors in IEEE.


We could.  I have pointed to the video, they describe exactly what they are using.  So do I need to explain, describe, digest the details and spell them out for you or can you just watch it?  I take it by your comments you have not watched it.  Comments about the video make more sense when you have seen it. 

post #1671 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 


Funny, how you can put all these signals through AD/DA conversion and recover them without problems.  If you have an exact 22.050 khz sine wave, and you put another one in there, you could say you have two, of course you would have one twice as big.  Unless you put in one out of phase in which case the samples of the new composite waveform would be different than before the addition.   So no without a masters in DSP I don't get what you are positing here.  I do get that the equipment works as it is said to work. 

 

Yeah it is funny how it works... if you put two signals of the exact same frequency and amplitude in there out of phase you would indeed hear nothing.  all three things, phase, frequency, and amplitude matter.  simple math really.


Edited by groovyd - 6/10/14 at 8:18pm
post #1672 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyd View Post
 

 

Yeah it is funny how it works... if you put two signals of the exact same frequency and amplitude in there out of phase you would indeed hear nothing.  all three things, phase, frequency, and amplitude matter.  simple math really.


By out of phase I didn't mean necessarily inverse phase, just not lined up in phase with each other. Could have been 1 degree out or 5 degrees or whatever including 180 out. But yes that part of the math is quite simple.

post #1673 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalchkn View Post
 

Hmmm. Not up to audiophile standard just yet. Maybe after some burn-in frequency response will change to handle >20KHz.

 

It's designed for near field laps

post #1674 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

What happened to it's eyes?  What is this thing called?  Is it yours bigshot?  Have you burn it in yet?

 

Believe it or not, the eyes are open in this picture. They are just teeny and tight together. This is "Pickles" and she burns me plenty!

post #1675 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 

By out of phase I didn't mean necessarily inverse phase, just not lined up in phase with each other. Could have been 1 degree out or 5 degrees or whatever including 180 out.

 

Do you know what the just detectable threshold (JDT) for that is? Do you know what kind of phase error you are talking about? These are the two questions that are the most important that theoreticians rarely get around to asking.

post #1676 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 


By out of phase I didn't mean necessarily inverse phase, just not lined up in phase with each other. Could have been 1 degree out or 5 degrees or whatever including 180 out. But yes that part of the math is quite simple.

 

180 out of phase will give silence.  using matlab you should see what waveforms you get adding two identical waves only out of phase with each other.  try it for a variety of different phases.  i think what you are imagining is how the ears are able to remove the significance of phase between signals to some extent, but of course not entirely. coming from different locations like speakers and into different ears at different times your brain is able to pretend phase is not as important as it is however the effects of signals being out of phase is certainly heard for example many have witnessed nodes of high and low volume depending on the placement of their subwoofers in a room and relative to each other.  invert one pair of wires going into one ear of your headphones and you will quite clearly hear the difference.  certainly 2 signals 180 degrees out of phase being put out by the same transducer and you will not hear a thing. this is actually the basis for noise canceling circuitry of some headphones.


Edited by groovyd - 6/10/14 at 8:32pm
post #1677 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

Here is my woofer.

 

 

Got a picture of a tweeter?

 

Cheers

post #1678 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyd View Post
 

 

180 out of phase will give silence.  using matlab you should see what waveforms you get adding two identical waves only out of phase with each other.  try it for a variety of different phases.  i think what you are imagining is how the ears are able to remove the significance of phase between signals to some extent, but of course not entirely. coming from different locations like speakers and into different ears at different times your brain is able to pretend phase is not as important as it is however the effects of signals being out of phase is certainly heard for example many have witnessed nodes of high and low volume depending on the placement of their subwoofers in a room and relative to each other.  invert one pair of wires going into one ear of your headphones and you will quite clearly hear the difference.  certainly 2 signals 180 degrees out of phase being put out by the same transducer and you will not hear a thing. this is actually the basis for noise canceling circuitry of some headphones.


Don't know what you imagine I am imagining, but it appears you are crossed up on it there.  Two sine waves of the same frequency will add to a larger or smaller wave of the same frequency depending on the amount out of phase they are.  At 180 out it goes to nothing, and at 360 or multiples it is doubled up.  If it happens at 22 khz I won't hear it either way. 

post #1679 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

Believe it or not, the eyes are open in this picture. They are just teeny and tight together. This is "Pickles" and she burns me plenty!

What is Pickle's nationality?  Breed? Is it a mut?

post #1680 of 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyd View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 


By out of phase I didn't mean necessarily inverse phase, just not lined up in phase with each other. Could have been 1 degree out or 5 degrees or whatever including 180 out. But yes that part of the math is quite simple.

 

180 out of phase will give silence.  using matlab you should see what waveforms you get adding two identical waves only out of phase with each other.  try it for a variety of different phases.  i think what you are imagining is how the ears are able to remove the significance of phase between signals to some extent, but of course not entirely. coming from different locations like speakers and into different ears at different times your brain is able to pretend phase is not as important as it is however the effects of signals being out of phase is certainly heard for example many have witnessed nodes of high and low volume depending on the placement of their subwoofers in a room and relative to each other.  invert one pair of wires going into one ear of your headphones and you will quite clearly hear the difference.  certainly 2 signals 180 degrees out of phase being put out by the same transducer and you will not hear a thing. this is actually the basis for noise canceling circuitry of some headphones.

 

1/ you're taking an example for right vs left and stuff heard probably far under 16khz. so not really our problem here, be it 44khz or 96khz.

2/ let's take our extreme case (the very useless one in music) 22khz. having 4 samples instead of 2 would help in what proportion for phase error?

 

from what I remember the most important for our human ears, is to avoid intermodulation distortion as much as possible as it is not at all musical. but for that purpose, the dac will add as many samples as needed by itself when needed to deal with aliasing. I'm not sure I see the benefits of 96khz on the original track.

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