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A New Hybrid from Indeed Hi-Fi Labs: does this look fun? - Page 16

post #226 of 355
1/2/10 at 12:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nost View Post
There's always eBay.ph: 4PCS Nichicon MUSE KZ Audio Capacitor 1000uF 25V NEW (item 250505140694 end time Jan 25, 2010 22:40:50 PHT)

It would be interesting to know the difference, Nichicon do several caps in the "Muse" range. Try "Nichicon muse 1000uf" in google. (interesting, the packaging is aklmost identicle to the Elana's) Also, it seems the RJJ spec is a high reliablity thing. beyond that i have no idea what a cap change might offer.
I've been doing a little research, too. Elna's audio grade electrolytic caps are the RFS SILMIC II line. Homemade Electronics has them here.

Oh yeah, the Elna RJJs are 105C rated. The Nichicon Muse KZs in the eBay link are only 85C. I think that the temperature rating relates to the reliability factor by operating longer at higher temps. That's just an educated guess on my part.

Both the Elna RFS SILMIC II and the Nichicon Muse KZs are taller than the RJJs and apparently of greater diameter.
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post #227 of 355
1/2/10 at 2:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerd1949 View Post
Nothing's wrong with the Elna's, but Elna doesn't recommend using them in an audio signal path. There are better audio quality caps that might offer an improvement for less money than buying a high priced tube, or for that matter, why buy a better tube and mask it with a cap not designed for audio?
I don't know if anything is being "masked" by these caps. Got proof?

I can assure you, though, that it is easier to pull out a tube and put another in the socket, than it is to desolder components and resolder new ones. This is even more true when the new components are much larger than their predecessors, as the audio grade electrolytics I've found are... especially in height.

Rolling a tube 1) doesn't require high priced tubes [I've got a couple that were 99p and sound much better than the stock one. Most were less than $10.] 2) doesn't require physically redesigning the amp [like changing out components might] and 3) minimizes the risk of damaging the circuit board [as opposed to de and re soldering components].

I don't know about others but it appears to me that you are volunteering to modify the caps on your amp as a service to the rest of us! Let us know how it goes after you de-mask that $2 Chinese tube.
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post #228 of 355
1/2/10 at 3:49am
Uhm... electrolytic caps in general aren't a good thing, but if it's a necessary evil, go with Elna RFS (Silmic II) from Digikey or Nichicon ES from Mouser if you want inexpensive but good. Otherwise, BlackGate NX it is

As for "proof", lots of people have built amps with electrolytic output caps; it's common knowledge that good signal coupling caps are important. Having said that, I've never even heard of Elna RJJ series. Going with Elna RFS or Nichicon ES, you know you're getting a good capacitor.

As for rolling tubes, enjoy
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post #229 of 355
1/2/10 at 4:40am
i heard new capacitor will be used in production after 22nd November 2009 and they claim its better than old capacitor..

anyone bought the new version, compare with older version and noticed the difference in sound?
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post #230 of 355
1/2/10 at 6:27am
I bought mine in mid-December, it is as it's shown in the pic on the ebay sales page. It shows the RJJ Elna caps and thats what i have, tho according to elna they are not "audio grade" as Indeed claim. What caps did the Indeed use befoe the upgrade?

I am inclined to side with the Judge on this one - that a different valve would have more affect than a different cap.

I havent rolled yet so am still on the lookout for a cheap A-framed, dimple-disc gettered valve.... i dont have loads of cash to play the "trial 'n' error" game so PM me if anyone has a spare. Im only using Senn HD 515s so im not looking for the best, just much better would suffice
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post #231 of 355
1/2/10 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by i_djoel2000 View Post
it didnt answer my question. i asked about how to 'tweak' this amp, meaning what kind of modding should give significant sound difference to the amp
whoops, sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Buff View Post
Both the Elna RFS SILMIC II and the Nichicon Muse KZs are taller than the RJJs and apparently of greater diameter.
So would that make installing them a more than challenging project for me to break into circuit board soldering with? Replacing capacitors sounds simple enough, but nothing like this ever really is. I have decent soldering skills, but not on tiny circuit boards yet; I just got a more precise desktop iron to try out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nost View Post
I bought mine in mid-December, it is as it's shown in the pic on the ebay sales page. It shows the RJJ Elna caps and thats what i have, tho according to elna they are not "audio grade" as Indeed claim. What caps did the Indeed use befoe the upgrade?

I am inclined to side with the Judge on this one - that a different valve would have more affect than a different cap.
These are all great points, and if I had the newer Elna caps I would probably go with my "never mind" instinct at this point, but I still am unsatisfied with this amp;s synergy with most headphones so far, it can be very fatiguing. Mine is close to a year old at this point, so most surely has the more industrial caps but I have to confirm.

So who's gonna be first to try this cap upgrade thing ?
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post #232 of 355
1/2/10 at 9:32am
Well, i've yet to properly audition the amp. I have tried it through a minidisc player when burning in and from a zune playing mp3's. My aim is Dual 505-4 TT > quad 34 (pre-amp) > Indeed > Senn hd515

Untill i get this all sorted i cant really comment on weather this amp will fulfill my needs. I'll have time soon (within the next week or two. then i can have a propper listen and think about what to do.
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post #233 of 355
1/2/10 at 10:02am
Mine arrived this morning, so far sounds great. I have a Mullard ECC88 on its way to me...

I might change the caps on it as the Elna RJJ don't seem that great. Just need to figure out what to change with, maybe some Panasonic FC as they are good and cheap

**edit**
I have dug up a few capacitors, some 16V 1000uF Nichicon Muse that will replace the Elna RJJ ...they only see less than 10V so the 16V caps will be fine. The power cap I will have to purchase ...still not sure of what I will use but having a 25V rated cap seeing 24.3V is cutting it a bit close I think...whatever I get it will be 35-50V to be safe. Physical size means it has to be less than 30mm high though so will take me awhile to find something decent.

There's also a little blue 100nf film cap that looks of questionable quality so I will change that out with a Wima .22uF that I have. Will report back once I make the changes this afternoon.
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post #234 of 355
1/2/10 at 10:37am
**ignore**
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post #235 of 355
1/2/10 at 12:08pm
So I changed out the 2 elna caps and the blue film cap for nichicon muse and wima....can't say I notice a whole lot of difference but the bass seems a bit more controlled...but then again it may just be in my head. Got to say I feel better having quality components in there though...and it looks good too



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post #236 of 355
1/2/10 at 1:02pm
cmon, lets move on to caps modding. leave tube rolling behind

i think changing capacitor will improves the sound better rather than changing tube. anybody have tried changing their caps and actually got significant improvement?
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post #237 of 355
1/2/10 at 1:06pm
one more thing..

i think changing the 6.3mm jack connector will also give improvement. its just an opinion though
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post #238 of 355
1/2/10 at 2:08pm
Thanks Gurusan, that's what I was looking for, I have nichicon KZ's (25v) on hand which don't readily fit. Yours looks like ES's? 16Vs? Which obviously are a good fit size wise. My other option is to use 470uf KZ's which look like they will fit.
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post #239 of 355
1/2/10 at 9:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
As for "proof", lots of people have built amps with electrolytic output caps; it's common knowledge that good signal coupling caps are important. Having said that, I've never even heard of Elna RJJ series. Going with Elna RFS or Nichicon ES, you know you're getting a good capacitor.

As for rolling tubes, enjoy
I was asking for proof that these caps were "masking" the tube as nerd1949 asserted. And as for the RJJ series they are a discontinued line (now it's RJH) of high reliability caps rated at 5000 hours @ 105C. They just aren't audio grade. The audio grades are apparently rated at 1000 hours at 85C (RFS).

My assertion is just this: You can't change a couple of caps and get the stock Chinese tube to sound as wonderful as either of my dimpled-gettered, A frame Mullards that I paid a total of 3.79 pounds plus 3 pounds for shipping.

I am not against changing out components at all. If people mod their amps and the changes are even subjectively dramatic, I'll probably do it too. But it won't equal rolling the tube. The tube is what gives this amp personality. The differences between the various tubes I have gathered for this amp aren't subtle in the least... You can bet your caps on that.
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post #240 of 355
1/3/10 at 12:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Buff View Post
I was asking for proof that these caps were "masking" the tube as nerd1949 asserted. And as for the RJJ series they are a discontinued line (now it's RJH) of high reliability caps rated at 5000 hours @ 105C. They just aren't audio grade. The audio grades are apparently rated at 1000 hours at 85C (RFS).

My assertion is just this: You can't change a couple of caps and get the stock Chinese tube to sound as wonderful as either of my dimpled-gettered, A frame Mullards that I paid a total of 3.79 pounds plus 3 pounds for shipping.

I am not against changing out components at all. If people mod their amps and the changes are even subjectively dramatic, I'll probably do it too. But it won't equal rolling the tube. The tube is what gives this amp personality. The differences between the various tubes I have gathered for this amp aren't subtle in the least... You can bet your caps on that.
i might agree with you. but from what i observed, the weakness of this indeed is that the mid sound is a little 'recessed'. other than that i didnt actually found them disappointing, but surprisingly good instead..

so from what the weakness i observed..changing caps to a more better synergy would be the solution
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