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The "truth" about different speaker cables - Page 7

post #91 of 309
6/16/09 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by leaf View Post
Interesting analogy.
Just to add to the analogy - In medicine prevention is better than a cure. As people frequenting a headphone forum we're all screwed. So if it is a placebo, and it works, then maybe that's the best we can hope for...

...until they develop that cure.
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post #92 of 309
6/16/09 at 2:10pm
The "cure" is realizing that it is placebo and then enjoying the music just as much without having to buy an expensive cable.
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post #93 of 309
6/16/09 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Man of Genius View Post
The "cure" is realizing that it is placebo and then enjoying the music just as much without having to buy an expensive cable.
Or, alternatively, use the existing audiophile cable and enjoy the placebo effect (instead of refusing it) and the even better sounding music.
.
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post #94 of 309
6/18/09 at 7:26pm
What about power cables? I already figured that interconnects are not necessary past a point. But what about POWAH!
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post #95 of 309
6/18/09 at 9:02pm
Wouldn't all this be easier, if you mapped out what was necessary to have and ensure great cable. Without all the FLUFF. EX give us models to compare. that are known to sound great at decent prices. Thanks!
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post #96 of 309
6/26/09 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
So I'd recommend to give the skin effect/phase distortions a try when it comes to measurings. Not in the form of phase measurings, but rather in the form of complex waveforms -- such as a cymbal crash or an excerpt of it, resp. --, if possible analogue or in high-resolution digital (96 or 192 kHz sampling rate) for better signal-shape discrimination/identification due to the avoiding of transient corruption by the antialiasing filter.
But you know, this is very easier for you to measure yourself. You can just:
  1. Download and install rmaa
  2. run cable a from lineout to linein and measure it all
  3. do the same for cable b
  4. see if phase distortion results have any differences
You can of course do the same with much higher precision with signal generators and oscilloscopes but it is a start. If you wish, you can do another test ... buy cable b, establish its phase distortion performance relative to a) and then see if you can hear a difference between the cables.
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post #97 of 309
6/26/09 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fzman View Post
2. Just because YOU can't tell cables apart by listening to them, doesn't mean they aren't audibly different.
This implies that there is at least one person who can verifiably tell cables apart by auditory input only. The inquiring minds want to know the identity of said person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzman View Post
4. shouldn't there be some consensus as to WHAT to measure before deciding whether some limited set of measurements "proves" anything about cable importance or audible differences?
5. what would it acutally take to get the cable nay-sayers to acknowledge that cables make an audible difference-- that is, what would consititute appropriate evidence? Karl Popper has argued that a theory which cannot be disproved is simply rhetoric-- and this applies equally to both sides of this long-standing debate.

inquiring minds want to know.
The best way would be an article in a peer-reviewed physics journal outlining the theoretical basis of the differences and how one measures these in practice . Transmission line research is an old subject.

The next best would be placebo controlled double blind trial where 1 group would be doing a ABX trial of identical "normal" cables (placebo) and the other would be doing a ABX between the same and a "premium" cable. Both groups would need to have at least ~ 20 participants and those carrying out the trial can't be having a direct financial interest in the outcome.
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post #98 of 309
6/27/09 at 6:42pm
The placebo argument is a insult.. Yes, placebo is very real, but to dismiss every 'improvement' as the listeners imagination is short sided. I told myself I would hear a great improvement when I bought my Cardas recable for 650.. Guess what! I didn't hear much if any improvement! I had my SA5000 recabled with the stock 650 cable. Not expecting to hear a difference & I did. I didn't like it.. But I believe that all cables are not made equally.. Different design, implementation, material etc.. I am talking about headphone recables though..
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post #99 of 309
6/27/09 at 6:59pm
Thread Starter 
Kool Bubba, let me ask you, why do you feel it is an insult towards you? I just don't get it.

Plus the example you give towards placebo I don't think that is called placebo. Your situation is called disposition. You were looking for something but did not find it, because nothing was there, whereas on the other one as you were not expecting anything you just caught "eye" (better ear ) on something that you related to the cable.

Don't take my response as an insult, it is not meant to be one.

BTW, have you read all the article or just comments from different people?
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post #100 of 309
6/29/09 at 6:37pm
I've been reading this thread and I think the last few posts touch on a very central thing IMO.

Music is a subjective experience - you cannot measure if you like the music or not. Therefore the most relevant way to "test" cables is to find out if you enjoy your music more with a particular cable. All the science stuff means little in this. If it sounds better to you, it simply is better... for you.

Where this discussion often goes wrong is:

1) Believers feeling insulted by this subjectivist view, they want there to be an objective difference between cable A and B.
2) Non-believer's ridiculing and know-it-all attitude.

Just enjoy the music

For the record I have everything wired up with cheap homemade stuff; I do use good quality (but non-"audiophile") connectors though.
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post #101 of 309
6/29/09 at 8:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post
I've been reading this thread and I think the last few posts touch on a very central thing IMO.

Music is a subjective experience - you cannot measure if you like the music or not. Therefore the most relevant way to "test" cables is to find out if you enjoy your music more with a particular cable. All the science stuff means little in this. If it sounds better to you, it simply is better... for you.

Where this discussion often goes wrong is:

1) Believers feeling insulted by this subjectivist view, they want there to be an objective difference between cable A and B.
2) Non-believer's ridiculing and know-it-all attitude.

Just enjoy the music

For the record I have everything wired up with cheap homemade stuff; I do use good quality (but non-"audiophile") connectors though.
Well I still think that is a wrong approach, because there is money at stake.

If I told you that that "SQ-improvement" you are experiencing with a change of cable (expensive one) can be experienced by fooling the listener by saying the cable the are using has been changed to a better one, more expensive one (made good looking, that actually has a radio shack cable "hidden" inside the fancy looking coating), what would then the expensive cable be?

Yeah, the answer is snake oil/money lost/something useless. And the listener would think there is actually an improvement in SQ, where there should not be, in accordance with the believer's ideas. The result is the same.

And what if the listener says: "no, but if I now change this cable here (disconnects equipment, changes cable, ..) I can hear an improvement"

So you then you prepare a DBT with the cables. One the cable he likes more, and the other one the radio shack cable. And at the end? (start most likely) of the test he is just guessing and doesn't know. What is the difference between those two cables aside from looks and how much money you spent on them?

There is no difference. But the listener can still feel that "SQ improvement" I spoke of just by being fooled in a very easy way. Or just by being a volume difference between different listening periods (that is why level matching is very important when doing comparisons). Or even by liking the looks in one more than other, and thinking "damn my system looks frickin' nice"

To sum up, I also agree that what is the most important of all is that the listener enjoys his music, but if just by feeling better, listening to it louder or having a better looking system you feel it sounds better when it actually is sounding the same, why keep spending more money on it? Why keep fooling yourself?

If you have the money, do what you want with it, but know what its spent on and what you are getting with it. At least that is what me as a "non believer" try to tell to other people.
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post #102 of 309
6/29/09 at 11:22pm
But if one cable is made of Silver and one of Copper, which one is better?
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post #103 of 309
6/30/09 at 7:00am
In the history of audio cables has there ever been a repeated test from cable A to cable B where 100% accuracy was achieved in determining which cable was which?

Lamp cord vs audiophile grade? If anybody does I'd love to know.
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post #104 of 309
6/30/09 at 8:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post
But if one cable is made of Silver and one of Copper, which one is better?
If you are willing to spend money on them, knowing that you are not going to get any SQ change, then the cheapest will be better, because you will be saving money, nothing else. (And assuming both are well built, both have good coating and the connections are well soldered)

If you like the looks of one more than the other and don't mind paying the price, then the one that is better is the one that matches your system's aesthetics.

As I mentioned before if by swapping cables you want to experience that "improvement" you can do it with any cable regardless its price/material.
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post #105 of 309
6/30/09 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwmclean View Post
In the history of audio cables has there ever been a repeated test from cable A to cable B where 100% accuracy was achieved in determining which cable was which?

Lamp cord vs audiophile grade? If anybody does I'd love to know.
100% accuracy is not needed to determine a statistical significant difference: ABX test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I would find a result of 100% rather suspiscious actually
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