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Horse manure products - Page 2

post #16 of 84
I am sure whatever cable you use will be good if your system is excellent but since one already pay a Farrari worth of amp/CD/speakers etc what is another £15k? For me it is whether the cable actually sounds good or not, not merely because it is expensive. Of course it would be insane to spend £15k on cable if it turns out to be margainally better than bell wire or cheaper cable....that's where your research/test/try out product before purchase come in, no?

As for Bob L., not 100% sure he would be happy to endorse just any really crappy wire if it doesn't work - he has a reputation after all.
post #17 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyOne View Post
Of course it would be insane to spend £15k on cable if it turns out to be margainally better than bell wire or cheaper cable....that's where your research/test/try out product before purchase come in, no?

As for Bob L., not 100% sure he would be happy to endorse just any really crappy wire if it doesn't work - he has a reputation after all.
If you want actual proof, go and check out Nick_Charles' thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/my...rprise-405217/

The difference between the most expensive and the cheapest ($5) cable is in the realms of hundreths or thousandths of a dB. Bare in mind a professional can hear about a 1dB difference (dependant on material) and a consumer usually about 3dB!

I'm sure Bob Ludwig would not endorse a cable which doesn't work, no one in their right mind would. The cable Bab is endorsing I'm sure is excellent but so are many cables at a fraction of the cost.

G
post #18 of 84
For me once a wire pass a certain threshold point, things become very subjective.......it is a case about presentation of things rather than just plain db etc. If things is quite as simple as that then you don't get "house sound" and every cable should sound exactly the same. The question of whether it is worth it or not, this is a harder question. It is like diamond/art, it could worth very little or very much depending on the beholder. The choice of whether to pay or not to pay is subjective and personal. For me I will test cable out on my equiment and decide whether it is worth it or not. That is a personal choice. I can't speak for others as it will be their choice.

Of course the equiments ones got will affect the decision as expensive gear tends to be able to discern difference better.

Lastly, I prefer to give people a chance to proove their case before drawling a conclusion - in the case of £15k cable, I would compare it with other cables, from cheap to expensive to see does it justify its cost or not, before making up my mind.
post #19 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyOne View Post
Lastly, I prefer to give people a chance to proove their case before drawling a conclusion - in the case of £15k cable, I would compare it with other cables, from cheap to expensive to see does it justify its cost or not, before making up my mind.
I would agree that this is a good cause of action for the newbies on here. From my point of view however, I've been in the world of professional audio for 25 years. I understand the laws of physics well enough (as they pertain to my field) to know that unless these cable manufacturers have recently won a noble prize for redefining the nature of physics, their cable cannot perform better than any decent cable costing say $10 a foot. Sure there will be fractional differences in performance (thousandths of a dB) but these differences are about a thousand times less than any human could detect and are totally blown away by the ineffciencies of any speaker (or headphone).

"it is a case about presentation of things rather than just plain db" - Unfortunately, all sound and music can only be heard through plain old dB. No dB, no sound, it's not rocket science!! It might sound like it from a consumer's point of view, but there is no magic going on here, it's pretty basic physics which has been well understood for over 100 years.

G
post #20 of 84
Well my experience in consumer products rather than studio is that people buy cables because we like certain characteristics (i.e. bass, air, 3D, palpable, warm, cold, detail, fuzzy etc) or colorations, that is the bottom line. My experience with cables is that they do sound different, it may or may not be worth it, but that is another issue.

I am not so sure db alone tells the whole story, it is one of the elements, otherwise all response graphs will be exactly the same for all cables, which clearly isn't the case. It is like saying 2 hambergers, one is from McD and the other done by Chef Ramsey. If you take both bergers to a lab, I am sure they will tell you that they are both made from the same materials, but does that mean they taste the same? Very likely Chef Ramsey's hamberger will taste better but it will cost a lot more, does that mean it is not worth it? I am sure some think it is and some don't. This is basically the scenario here.

I do not believe I am alone in this, nor do I believe everyone is either stupid, deluded or completely insane. There is something there. The question is, is it worth it? That is something very subjective and personal.

All I can say is that I think we can agreed to disagree.


PS. I do agree with you that cables prices have gone insane. There was a time when cables were not super expensive (in comparison to now) but has since keep going up and up.
post #21 of 84
SleepyOne - The physics of how a signal travels down a cable is very well understood, the physics of how the ear works is very well understood. But, how the brain percieves the data transmitted to it from the ear is not very well understood at all. There are all kinds of audio illusions, like there are optical illusions. What we can say is that of course different cables have different properties but the ear cannot detect differences between an average $10 cable and a so called high quality $200+ cable. However, just because the ear cannot detect a difference does not mean that the brain cannot perceive a difference!

G
post #22 of 84
That is your opinion. As said, I agreed to disagree.
post #23 of 84
SleepyOne - True, my opinion is based on 25 years experience in the world of professional audio and on many of the greatest minds the world has ever known: Faraday, Volta, Ampere, Ohm, Tesla, Watt, Edison, Galvani, Graham Bell and a host of others. What is your opinion based on?

G
post #24 of 84
From personal experience in audio for 20 years, from people I know who have similar views, from a lot of people in this hifi industry, including Bob L. Even Sennheiser has to do something about the cable for the HD800, maybe they are wrong too. If you honestly believe all wire sounds & behave the same, like a thin wire vs a 1.5 cm thick cable, on different amps, than what can I say? Of course maybe you know everythng, and everyone else who do not agreed are just nuts....
post #25 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyOne View Post
I do not believe I am alone in this, nor do I believe everyone is either stupid, deluded or completely insane. There is something there. The question is, is it worth it? That is something very subjective and personal.

All I can say is that I think we can agreed to disagree.


PS. I do agree with you that cables prices have gone insane. There was a time when cables were not super expensive (in comparison to now) but has since keep going up and up.
You know that phrenology used to be accepted as true, don't you? Or that bloodlettig cured illness? Or maybe the four humours being out of balance was making you sick. People put a lot of stock in nonsense. They always have.

As for prices, why do you suppose that is? Is there a benefit to the consumer from high prices? Likely not. Raw materials and labor for cables is awfully cheap. Actually, the cost of manufacture for a $10 cable and a $1,000 cable is about the same. Again, why do you suppose that is?

One of the most difficult things is to counter a lie on the terms a lie presents itself. Those terms are always calculated to throw in lots of doubt and muddy things up. You want to give people the benefit of the doubt, which begins to give the lie credibility.

If you want to take down a lie, you have to come at it sideways. Lies are usually obvious from a different angle.

So, why is there a $990 markup on a $1,000 cable? If you are, quite openly, being scammed on the price, then why aren't you concerned about being scammed on the claims? If they lie about the price, what else do they lie about? There's only one reasonable conclusion.
post #26 of 84
Uncle Erik, I do agree re: rip off price, I started this hobby before prices gone crazy. It is pure profiteering no doubt. But what I am arguing is really about differences in sound. I heard enough wires to note difference between wires. Just differences. Wether it is good or bad or worth it, is another matter - that is purely subjective. But to claim no difference in sound between wires that I do not agree, that simply isn't my experience. As to whether it is worth it, that is a much harder question. It is like those modern art where it could worth nothing to you and me but huge money to a few people. I personally do feel cable companies have over charged customers for having a nice combination of characteristic (or coloration) in a cable.

Of course with so much BS in the market one has to be very careful. Only by trying a product out, ideally with your own equiments, aganist other cables (from cheap to expensive) can one decide whether the cost is really justified or not. Rightly or wrongly, at least that will be a decision that one can live with - like you brough a painting in a market, it might or might not worth much, but at least you are happy with it.
post #27 of 84
Let me show you just HOW far some will go.......

YouTube - Greek Audiophile
post #28 of 84
Signal Cable

Good Enough
post #29 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trav View Post
Let me show you just HOW far some will go.......

YouTube - Greek Audiophile
VERY interesting link. I wish I had that kind of coin to spend on good interconnects, but then again I would have to get better components first.
post #30 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyOne View Post
If you honestly believe all wire sounds & behave the same, like a thin wire vs a 1.5 cm thick cable, on different amps, than what can I say?
I didn't say anything of the kind, in fact I said exactly the opposite, that there are differences between cables. I'm not suggesting that anyone goes and gets the scankiest bit of wire from your local landfill. I'm saying there is nothing to gain from 1ft $3000 cable compared to a $10 foot of cable, provided of course they are both the correct cable types for the job!

G
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