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Zune LOD - Page 2

post #16 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
and this matters how exactly?? within 2 years of being released the ipod was everywhere
I don't know if I would say that. The third year was really the year sales took flight.
File:IPodsales 2008Q3.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
post #17 of 44
The Zune would have sold more if MS had dumped the current marketing team in charge and actually promoted the thing, oh that and tried to sell it in more countries then the N American ones. The marketing of the Zune has been atrocious.

MS really need to totally re-think the Sales and Marketing strategy for the Zune. I pointed this out on another forum. If things dont step up a gear in the next few months then chances are the Zune was never a serious product. A great product but never a serious proposition.

And yes the headphone out is veryt very good indeed. I have the Mk1 dock too and the feed into my hifi is superb. I find it very hard to tell the Zune and the CD apart. In fact 99% of my hifi listening is with the Zune in the Dock.
post #18 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstarn06 View Post
When in the cradle, the Zune audio controls are still functional, which may indicate it's not an LOD at all, but merely the HP out coming from a different place (the bottom and not the top).
That may be the case, but the functionality of volume doesn't say anything since volume control in most DAPs (if not all) today are done in the digital and not in the analogue stage.

Electronic experts correct me if I am wrong. With a multimeter, measure continuity across the signal out of the dock (when engaged and playing music) and the headphone out, if there is zero resistance we can safely say that the line is in fact the headphone out. Else we can say that the line out is not the headphone out, though it does not necessarily mean the line out is better.

May be another way to look at it is to do a subjective listening test, if one can't tell the headphone out from the dock line out, then it won't matter at all.
post #19 of 44
Agree, I wish someone could put the Zune LOD mystery to rest, once and for all. I can't. But you are also right, if you can't tell the HP out from the Line out dock, what does it matter (he types as he sits at his car dealership with his iBasso T4 hooked up to his Zune HP out and the Phonak Audeos plugged in. Mmmmm, sounds great).
post #20 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navyblue View Post
That may be the case, but the functionality of volume doesn't say anything since volume control in most DAPs (if not all) today are done in the digital and not in the analogue stage.

Electronic experts correct me if I am wrong. With a multimeter, measure continuity across the signal out of the dock (when engaged and playing music) and the headphone out, if there is zero resistance we can safely say that the line is in fact the headphone out. Else we can say that the line out is not the headphone out, though it does not necessarily mean the line out is better.

May be another way to look at it is to do a subjective listening test, if one can't tell the headphone out from the dock line out, then it won't matter at all.
sorry but your test will not work, whether they are the same type of signal or not, there is zero possibility that there will be nothing in between the 'line out' and hP out, there will be resistors, perhaps an inductor or two and probably even be sent out from totally different pins on the dac. nice theory, but wont work in practice either way. whether its a digital attenuation or not (chances are it is a digitally controlled circuit) the difference is a HP out goes through an amplification circuit, actually attenuates the signal not boosts it in this case I think you will find. a line out does not go through this stage. both will always originate at the same point in the dac, but will both have different paths, if indeed its a line out. but if it goes through an amp/attenuation stage, no matter how you spin it its not a line out.

I agree it matters little in the greater scheme of things, and I really dont care either way, all that matters is how it sounds to you (which is apparently quite good), but I dont know about equaling a decent CD player, sounds far fetched as most people including myself dont think that even IMOD/DIYMOD with VCAP dock is equal to a good CD player; are you saying that ZUNE from HP out is better than IMOD with VCAP??. Something like the wadia dock is a different story. The only thing I object to is statements that were made that were based on nothing but .. well nothing, its all very well to have a personal opinion; I respect that, but dont try and pass it off as something else.

Quote:
I don't know if I would say that. The third year was really the year sales took flight.
File:IPodsales 2008Q3.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
LOL mate what are you doing?? you are just hanging around in the background waiting to correct small factual errors, lets just say they were well on their way to taking over the industry and sales had boosted apples profits massively.
post #21 of 44
Correct me if I'm wrong but this thread is about the possibility of a ZUNE LOD and not ipod vs zune or the history of ipods. Lets keep it on topic.
post #22 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
sorry but your test will not work, whether they are the same type of signal or not, there is zero possibility that there will be nothing in between the 'line out' and hP out, there will be resistors, perhaps an inductor or two and probably even be sent out from totally different pins on the dac. nice theory, but wont work in practice either way. whether its a digital attenuation or not (chances are it is a digitally controlled circuit) the difference is a HP out goes through an amplification circuit, actually attenuates the signal not boosts it in this case I think you will find. a line out does not go through this stage. both will always originate at the same point in the dac, but will both have different paths, if indeed its a line out. but if it goes through an amp/attenuation stage, no matter how you spin it its not a line out.
I'm not sure what you are disagreeing, part of what you are saying is basically what I was saying, In short what I said was:

If there is zero resistance across line out and headphone out, that would mean that there is no resistors, chips or etc in between, which would mean that signal from dock and headphone out signal are identical.

Can this be faulted?

If there is resistance across line out and headphone out is not zero, line out signal from dock is not the same as headphone out.

Can this be faulted?

I was merely saying that they are not the same, and I specifically mentioned that "it does not necessarily mean the line out is better." which I meant to take into account of whatever component is in the signal path between the Zune and the dock output.

As for your definition of line out signal, I'm afraid that is not accurate. A signal can still be considered "line level" after passing through amplification and attenuation stage (think pre amp, mixing console and etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
I agree it matters little in the greater scheme of things, and I really dont care either way, all that matters is how it sounds to you (which is apparently quite good), but I dont know about equaling a decent CD player, sounds far fetched as most people including myself dont think that even IMOD/DIYMOD with VCAP dock is equal to a good CD player; are you saying that ZUNE from HP out is better than IMOD with VCAP??. Something like the wadia dock is a different story. The only thing I object to is statements that were made that were based on nothing but .. well nothing, its all very well to have a personal opinion; I respect that, but dont try and pass it off as something else.
Is the above meant for me? You put it under my quote, but I made no comment about Zune is better or worse than CDP or iMod with VCAP. I certainly wouldn't say that Zune is as good as any decent CDP. I have not heard the iMod so I really don't know. Me making statement based on nothing and trying to pass my personal opinion as something else?
post #23 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punnisher View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but this thread is about the possibility of a ZUNE LOD and not ipod vs zune or the history of ipods. Lets keep it on topic.
My thought too.
post #24 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navyblue View Post
I'm not sure what you are disagreeing, part of what you are saying is basically what I was saying, In short what I said was:

If there is zero resistance across line out and headphone out, that would mean that there is no resistors, chips or etc in between, which would mean that signal from dock and headphone out signal are identical.

Can this be faulted?
what i'm saying is that even if they are both HP out and connected in the dac, there will still be some form of resistance or a capacitor which will make it impossible to determine if they are indeed from the same source without determining the value of each component along the way. a capacitor inline makes it impossible to measure resistance, at least with a continuity test anyway. so not arguing there, but just saying this test would be inconclusive

Quote:
If there is resistance across line out and headphone out is not zero, line out signal from dock is not the same as headphone out.

Can this be faulted?
only if the lineout doesnt go through anything; which like I said is extremely unlikely

Quote:
I was merely saying that they are not the same, and I specifically mentioned that "it does not necessarily mean the line out is better." which I meant to take into account of whatever component is in the signal path between the Zune and the dock output.
agreed

Quote:
As for your definition of line out signal, I'm afraid that is not accurate. A signal can still be considered "line level" after passing through amplification and attenuation stage (think pre amp, mixing console and etc.).
fair enough. I didnt take pre-amplification into account.


Quote:
Is the above meant for me? You put it under my quote, but I made no comment about Zune is better or worse than CDP or iMod with VCAP. I certainly wouldn't say that Zune is as good as any decent CDP. I have not heard the iMod so I really don't know. Me making statement based on nothing and trying to pass my personal opinion as something else?
sorry NO that wasnt meant for you, was a general statement to a couple guys before that had said they found it difficult to tell the difference between their CD players and the ZUNE dock. the VCAP was only mentioned because I can tell the difference between mine and a CD player fairly easily. they arent miles apart, but easily noticeable. see where i'm going?? wasnt meant to stoke the ipod vs. ZUNE thing. and the statement about nothing was the one claiming that

Originally Posted by swanlee
the facts are that the IPOD head phone output is measurably bad, the Zune's is not.

which is unsubstantiated and clearly just an opinion

and just a general statement from me; sorry, late last night I found out something that really made me angry and I guess I was posting MAD and just looking for something to disagree about; not deliberately, but I guess thats what happened . childish I know, but thats how I felt; I wont go into what it was but its been going on for a while and I have realized that my behavior on here of late has been erratic, sometimes provocative and out of character. was actually thinking of making a blanket apology in the members lounge. Either way, sorry for taking the thread off track a bit.

my comments about the test though were only designed to help, because I dont think given the way lineout in these devices are set up that it would be conclusive.
post #25 of 44
Qusp,

Thanks for your clarification.

No I didn't find you childish, may be just unexplainable, we all wake up on the wrong side of the bed once in a while.

Cheers.
post #26 of 44
Thread Starter 
I'd like to add that I prefer my Zune headphone output to the stereo ouptut of my emu-0404 pci card. This is when using the ksc75's.
I don't know if it is because a lack of a true opamp section because there is a good chance that I'm using the EMU's line-out as the pci card doesn't have a dedicated headphone plug.

rgrds
post #27 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navyblue View Post
Qusp,

Thanks for your clarification.

No I didn't find you childish, may be just unexplainable, we all wake up on the wrong side of the bed once in a while.

Cheers.
thanks for understanding, my point was its been more than once in a while lately and having to regroup; get some perspective on some things at home. this place is meant to be an escape and I dont want to be dragging my baggage around here too.

back OT: if only we could actually get zune here for test, but I still think I will prefer my DIYMOD->VCAP or iriver->gamma1->lisa III. but still very interested to see what the fuss is about. if only it werent a MS product (I guess i'm prejudiced )
post #28 of 44
post #29 of 44



OMG!!!!! That's where I got my excellent Sony LOD from,................by all means, get the damn thing!!! Their products are excellent!!!

post #30 of 44
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