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WOO Audio 3+ experience - Page 4

post #46 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
A question for anyone (including OP) who has purchased a WA3+ in the last ~6 months.

How long did it take to get to you? I was told 4 weeks, I start the 5th week on the 9th... so the estimation isn't late yet... just trying to get an idea of what I can really expect as far as wait time (and I don't want to bother them with e-mails until they really are late).

I ordered the WA3+ after waiting ~2 weeks for a little dot MK3 only to be told that he was out of stock (and the Chinese spring festival also delayed things). So I am up to a total wait time of ~7 weeks without an amp for my new DT880s. It's getting painful!
Mine took exactly 4 weeks to be delivered. But be assured that it is worthwile to wait. In the meantime you may save some money for the tube rolling to come your way
post #47 of 190
Thanks for the info! I was just afraid it might turn into a "we need a couple more weeks" type deal.

I may have jumped the gun a bit, but I already ordered some tubes for it from tubeworld (fast shipping btw):

JAN-5998 Tungsol, 1967

6DJ8 Amperex Holland 1975 (matched pair)

I was mainly going off the conversations held in this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/woo...olling-375119/

A nice shielded powercord is on the way (but nothing too crazy, < $60), and I already bought some nice interconnects to go from the Asus Xonar Essence to the amp.

Started messing around with fubar2000 & flac compression last night... I am currently using Windows Media Player & .wma lossless.

So I think I am set, just need the amp!
post #48 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
A question for anyone (including OP) who has purchased a WA3+ in the last ~6 months.

How long did it take to get to you? I was told 4 weeks, I start the 5th week on the 9th... so the estimation isn't late yet... just trying to get an idea of what I can really expect as far as wait time (and I don't want to bother them with e-mails until they really are late).

I ordered the WA3+ after waiting ~2 weeks for a little dot MK3 only to be told that he was out of stock (and the Chinese spring festival also delayed things). So I am up to a total wait time of ~7 weeks without an amp for my new DT880s. It's getting painful!
While I ordered a WA2, not a WA3+, my order also ran a little behind schedule. I was told 4 weeks, and it ended up shipping yesterday, which was about 5 1/2 weeks after the order. I had e-mailed Jack and he said they were running a bit behind (and was very apologetic).
post #49 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
I may have jumped the gun a bit, but I already ordered some tubes for it from tubeworld (fast shipping btw):

JAN-5998 Tungsol, 1967
6DJ8 Amperex Holland 1975 (matched pair)

I was mainly going off the conversations held in this thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/woo...olling-375119/

A nice shielded powercord is on the way (but nothing too crazy, < $60), and I already bought some nice interconnects to go from the Asus Xonar Essence to the amp.

Started messing around with fubar2000 & flac compression last night... I am currently using Windows Media Player & .wma lossless.

So I think I am set, just need the amp!
I think you are. (just for the source....see below)

I will start tube rolling myself soon with
1. Sylvania 6DJ8 1978 NOS
2. Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS -> thats probaly the one you have, too.
3. Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88 Holland "D" getter 1950s NOS

Besides I could not resist trying some 5998, too. So we may exchange our impressions about those then. I'll intend to post a comparison also including combinations with the 5998. And you are absolutely right with your choice of a reasonable powercord. The crazy ones are only crazy priced - unless you go for a PS Audio Power Regenerator solution - which makes then a big difference. I know since I own one - but its reserved for my big playback system with speakers.

Guess where I get some of my own inspirations from The link you mention is superb as is tubeworld.

But if I may comment your source (soundcard): You do not really intend to use a PC as source using compressed audio ? The amp that you will own soon and which you are going to optimize has a really huge potential ! Just remember that even then the amp may only amplify what is fed into it. I would consider a decent source (audio player, preferably capable of playing SACD, too). The SACD sound quality would floor you in combination with the WA3+. My Yamaha DVD S-2700 is only a preliminary solution, although this one is optimized for audio playback, too. But I do know that I need to get a better source to do justice to the whole setup. If you are not planning to get a decent player, too - why dont you just try one in comparison if you have the chance. Just for curiosity However, congratulations to you - soon you will be a happy WA3+ user !
post #50 of 190
I like the convenience of storing my media on hard disk... I built a windows home server with several terabytes of storage for music and movies. The .wma files I have been using are lossless, as are the FLAC versions of the same media (I guess the cool kids use fubar and flac, so I wanted to see what I was missing if anything).

That said, I am sure there are always better sources, but in my present living situation I lack a nice location to setup a dedicated headphone audio station, desk space is at a premium. Looking to move into a bigger place this summer unless the economic situation gets significantly worse than it already is.
post #51 of 190
Thread Starter 
Reporting day 5: Some serious tube rolling starts: Shootout #1

Burn in time so far: approx. 63 hours (about 93h for the Senns)

I had the following 3 pairs of driver tubes at my disposition apart from the standard stock Philips ECG JAN 6922 USA - which were already quite acceptable by the way:

1. Sylvania 6DJ8 1978 NOS
2. Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS
3. Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88 Holland "D" getter 1959 NOS (could not resist to try those - although they were pretty expensive - but I consider it an adventure well worth to try them out)

When I read through some tube rolling reviews it just came to me that I needed to try some 5998s in addition to my 7236 Cetron as well so I ordered some JAN 5998 Tungsol 1963 NOS Top Getter.

Now for the comparison itself: It is very difficult to A-B tubes since you will have to let cool down set A before you may try set B - which then needs a warm up period again. Remembering the sound in all its aspects is difficult. I try to focus on certain characteristics: a) immediate overall impression b) deep and defined bass c) resolution and detail d) imaging ("3D") e) midrange warmth (musicality) f) homogeneity (balance) of b) to e). To do that I use the following recordings over and over again (the music is nice so I do not get bored) to get used to the differences:

1. SACD "Closer to the music", Various Artists, Stockfisch Records, 2004
2. SACD "Hell or high water", Sara K., Stockfisch Records, 2006
3. CD "Lady", Friend'n Fellow, Ruf Records, 2009
4. SACD "Audiophile Reference IV", Various Artists, First Impression Music, 2000
5. SACD "Libera Me", Lars Danielsson, ACT, 2004

These recordings are superb and really very much recommended by the way.

Listening is always done with a warmed up amp (at least 30 min) - I noticed that a warmup period of about 2 hours is necessary to unleash the full potential of the amp. That is not new - even my solid state amp needs a 2 hour warm up to produce the best sound.

The combinations that are therorectically possible are then as listed below. I had to perform a shootout to lower the number of combinations first. The result is as follows:

1. 7326 Cetron 1983 NOS with Sylvania 6DJ8 1978 NOS
First impression review: The Sylvania makes the sound pleasantly softer and warmer - but the combination will have a less defined bass. But for the buck the bang is definitely there. This recommendation of Skylab is really a good one. But there is something better (more expensive, though) - and therefore the first combination not in the further competition anymore.

2. 7326 Cetron 1983 NOS with Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS
First impression review: One step up from the previous combination. The bass is back - now its REALLY tight, however, this combination sounds a bit not so homogenous somehow - it is all there, the detail, the bass, the imaging - but the overall impression is maybe a bit too much "high end" - and not so much musical. Hard to describe. But this is still a very very good combination. Depends a bit on the taste and of the music. If I could change the tubes by flipping a switch that would be one of the options I would program. Stays in round 2.

3. 7326 Cetron 1983 NOS with Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88 Holland "D" getter 1959 NOS
First impression review: The fundament that the 7236 provides together with the musicality the Bugle Boy introduces is an extremely good combination. Stays in the competition. Could be the winner. With this combination I tried also a change of headphones with astonishing results: It was the Senn HD650/Silver Dragon vs. my old Senn 600HD/Cardas. This change was like day and night - with the 650HD/Silver Dragon winning by a VERY drastic margin ! I would describe it like the difference between AM and FM (those good old radio days), but on a much more higher level. I may only imagine that my HD600 is already too old (must be 15 years or so). The difference that I heard was really amazing - and it is NOT some bassy flavour of the 650 that make me say that. The 650 won the 1st prize overall and the 600 will be assigned to the guitar amp department in the office (home office that is).

4. 5998 Tungsol 1963 NOS with Sylvania 6DJ8 1978 NOS
Conclusion: Out for round 2 without even trying. Not reviewed, since the 5998 has already some soft characteristics (see option 5 below) which the Sylvania very most likely may not compensate. It most probably will also not be able to introduce some more interesting flavours like the Bugle Boy or the Philips.

5. 5998 Tungsol 1963 NOS with Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS
Conclusion: Not tested yet, but theoretically this might be a good one, too - although the combination does not include my expensive Bugle Boys. Would somehow regret if this was the final winner - but nevertheless the combination goes into the next round.

6. 5998 Tungsol 1963 NOS with Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88 Holland "D" getter 1959 NOS
First impression review: This seems to be the resolution champion and a possible winner, too. Makes me hear things on recordings that I did not notice before. And it is an extremely musical option. It has tremendous midrange warmth and homogeneity and allows unfatigued listening, making you would not like to stop listening. Voices are reproduced the most articulate with that option. Have to break it in further and then see how it compares after a while. Unfortunately, the bass fundament is not that defnied as with option 3. This may be one of the most "revealing" combinations, I predict. Seems that this one brings the pros and cons of the source to light. Unfortunately my source is just OK but not really very great. I do not dare now to lead this conclusion to a meaningful end Any suggestions for an above average source which plays CD and SACD (SACD is a must) in the range of about up to US$ 3'000 ? (How about a Linn Akurate ? - although even more expensive - but perhaps also very good for the very high cost ?). I would have a look (listen) at a Meridian, too, but there is no model which plays both SACD and CD I think.

First tube rolling conclusions of the first shoutout round:
The 7236 is the bass champion, the 5998 is on the smoother side. The Sylvania 6DJ8 is the musical champion for the buck but will compromise on the bass side, the Amperex is better in this regard and a bit (!) more musical (although overall much better in the end - or am I saying that because it was overall much more expensive, too ? ) The Philips ECC88 is something in between.

But the good news is that with all the combinations tested I had a very good sound, with options 2, 3 and 6 standing out so far. Four candidates will be subject to more in-depth tests in the next round to find my personal favourite. After all it’s a personal taste thing and the whole setup contributes to the overall result as well. What sounds good in my setup and to me may not sound as good in your setup and to you - but I think the tendencies would stay and I hope my further reviews will at least be helpful to some. There are other posts on this subject which may be better than my review then but the impressions must be part of of this thread - its concept is to let you participate in my experiences with the WA3+ as my first headphone amp. And I have to say thank you again to my fellow head-fiers who have given me friendly and helpful advice along the way, too.

One conclusion is as well that only some weeks ago I had been merely buying a HD650 because it was offered to me brandnew at an advantageous price. Now I find myself addicted to "tuberolling". So be warned ! Its really addictive ! (Where do I get a reasonable tube tester ?) Even my wife finds the tubes interesting - the 5998 looks nice to her ("looks like a mummy"). I will call it "the mummy" from now on.

Of course I would be interested to know what you think about the options which you may have tried out yourself before. I'll let you know my further experiences once I go into the next round with the fab four - but first everything needs to break in further I believe.
post #52 of 190
Wow, what a great write-up!

And yes, tube-rolling can be VERY addicting
post #53 of 190
I agree with the 5998 + Bugle boy 6DJ8 pairing. this is the most musical combo I've had in the past on my Woo3+.
post #54 of 190
Jack said mine would ship next week :P

Thanks for all the info MooBin.
post #55 of 190
I would never hesitate to contact Jack. I wouldn't abuse it, but he's completely forthcoming, extremely helpful about technical questions, and seems to love what he's doing.

It definitely beats worry and unnecessary speculation.

I'd also agree with Skylab - that was a great write-up, MooBin. I have come to pretty much identical conclusions about tubes for my WA2; Bugle Boys and 5998. A healthful feast for the ears.
post #56 of 190
Yeah.

So I have had the amp for about a week now. My first impression was something like,
“well, I think it sounds better, but I am not sure exactly why or how”.

The only concrete thing I could point to was that before I had the amp I had to play with some equalizer settings to find a perfect sound. After I hooked up the amp I could play music with very little or no modification to have perfect sound.

I did have some other tubes to try, but I wanted to spend a good month with the original tubes so I could train my ears to the point that I might be able to tell the difference when I switched tubes.

Well, 2 days ago the amp suddenly stopped working. In panic mode, I decided to put in the 5998 Tungsol and the 2x6DJ8 Amperex Hollands that I had bought, thinking that one of the tubes the amp shipped with may have gone bad.
Still no dice.
Unhooked everything, plugged in different cables, and it started working again. Put everything back with the original cables and everything was fine again. <shrug>

Started taking in the new tubes. Now I hear a significant difference. The sound is good without any EQ shenanigans and everything sounds warmer and more alive. Exactly what I was looking for. Not going to try to approach Moobin’s detail, I don’t think I have good enough ears to do that kind of analysis, but I can say the nicer tubes were “worth it”, and have brought my amp and overall sound to life.
On another note, some HD650s should be in the mail tomorrow. I totally dig my DT880s, but I wanted to compare and contrast with some other nice phones.
post #57 of 190
Thread Starter 
Reporting day 6: Tube rolling continued, a music recommendation, some conclusions and a Woo Headphone Stand

Burn in time so far: approx. 110 hours for cabling, source, WA3+ basic (tubes vary), about 140 hours for the Senns.

I begin with a big recommendation: I received a Woo Audio Headphone Stand (for a single headphone). Wow, now that’s what I call build quality ! (And I am a born german staying in Switzerland if you know what I mean ). I can absolutely recommend this one. Sturdy, precisely manufactured, practical and beautiful ! It came nicely packaged, too. A perfect gift - for yourself and for others. I will again order one IF I would get a second headphone one time (Well, this HD800 thing, you know).

The following 4 combinations (out of 6) stayed after shooutout #1 in round two of the tube rolling adventure:

2. 7326 Cetron 1983 NOS with Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS
3. 7326 Cetron 1983 NOS with Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88 Holland "D" getter 1959 NOS
5. 5998 Tungsol 1963 NOS with Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS
6. 5998 Tungsol 1963 NOS with Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88 Holland "D" getter 1959 NOS

Since I had combination 6. installed the last time I switched tubes, I continued listening with this combination for about 50 hours first - enjoyment plus break-in that was. It then appeared to me again how beautiful one of the recordings really was that I used for the listening and before I go on I would like to give this album a hearty recommendation.

It is the CD/SACD "Libera Me", Lars Danielsson, ACT, 2004. Lars Danielsson is mainly playing bass and cello and is accompanied in some of the tunes by the Danish Radio Concert Orchestra which I could use well to contemplate the reproduction of orchestral music in the setup while at the same time obtain a better idea about the bass reproduction. And above that I was assuming that combination 6 was exactly the one which does fit this kind of music best.

Orchestra or not - this is NOT a classical recording - it is jazz mixed with some orchestral accompaniment. Some pieces are bass only, like the classic "both sides now", some even a bit experimental. Not everybody likes the same music - but as a music lover interested in melodious jazz - why don’t we just call it good music I would really give this recording a big chance. Besides I do not know how much wellknown the ACT record company is outside Europe. But ACT is a real good one for the music and the sound quality (one of the other ones is Stockfisch records). When I will write the summary of my experiences of this thread after I have finished all experiments I would like to include some minor CD/SACD recommendations, too.

One question which I have read over and over again in the forum just comes to my mind right now. Is it recommended to use a (tube) headphone amp at all ? I am at the point that I may answer that with a big yes - provided it does fit the setup. As you all know, tube amps do have some big advantage: They let you alter the sound by tube rolling. That is quite easy - although it may be expensive (well lets not fool ourselves - it IS expensive since as an explorer on the subject you most probably would like to try as many options as possible). But it is somehow an exotic adventure in a good sense (or what else may you call using a 50 year old tube ?) and because of that tubes are fascinating and convey something from a past era, they sound good and they look good and they will captivate you. There are most probably some downsides, too but who cares

Back to the tuberolling then - and excuse my excesses.

First comparison of shootout #2: Combination 6 vs. 5:

As stated before, combination 6 (5998 Tungsol 1963 NOS with Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88 Holland "D" getter 1959 NOS) produces nice ringing and detailed highs and a textured and athmosphaeric deep bass, strings come authentic. The downside is the bass definition. The intro to Chris Jones' "No sanctuary here" reaches deep down but lacks a bit of the "slam". However, the overall sound is very good - even with the limitation of the Yamaha DVD S-2700 as a source which may be a bit on the lean side of sound. It is amazing how good the whole setup sounds already now. I can imagine that this tube combination might be the closest out of the combinations in the current exercise to a "typical tube amp characteristic" - if there is such a thing, but maybe you know what I mean or want to express.

It was now interesting to see how the characteristics change if the 5998 stays in place but the Bugle boys will be exchanged for the Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS - giving combination 5.

I was expecting a decrease in sound quality, instead I was surprised by an exceptionally clear sound and a better bass definition. Previously I had attributed the lack of this quality to the 5998 mummy if compared to the 7236. It seems now that combination 5 - using the 5998 - is as well capable of a defined bass. It will be interesting to see how this compares later to the 7236 - Amperex combi 3. Overall the sound quality of combi 5 is stunningly detailed - yet not harsh at all. Seems that the 5998 and the Philips ECC88 are meant for each other. I dare to say that combi 5 wins over 6 (the 5998 - Amperex combi) despite the hefty price surplus of the Bugle Boys over the Philips.

This is going to be a tough shoutout. I will now listen for a while with combination 5 and then exchange the 5889 with the Cetron 7236 (combination 2) hoping that this will then be a clear looser. Combination 5 will stay in the contest, it sounds fascinating, but it will have to compete against combination 6 in the end again.

A suspicion is forming: When the 5998 and the Amperex may both be attested the attribute "soft" and the 7236 and the Philips the attribute "firm", then I predict that a combination of "soft" and "firm" (regardless whether this applies to the preamp or power tubes) will win over the combinations "soft" and "soft" or "firm" and "firm".

I will pursue this theory further and will keep you posted.
post #58 of 190
Try some amperex 7308 next! I love the 7308 + 5998 combo
post #59 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
Try some amperex 7308 next! I love the 7308 + 5998 combo
Thank you very much for the suggestion ! This seems to be one pretty rare breed ! It should better be good ! I hope you enjoy it.

But before I do consider this option I would like to finish the shootout with my 4 combinations. How much better can a WA3+ get ? And who knows - for some reasons completely unknown to me currently I might suddenly turn wealthy Guess that would help a bit too if considering a 7308 - if you are able to catch a pair of decent NOS at all

This WA3+ is getting better and better - scary
post #60 of 190
Thread Starter 
Reporting day 7: Tube rolling continued - Not really an elimination but rather a matter of taste plus some music recommendations

Burn in time so far: approx. 140 hours for cabling, source, WA3+ basic (tubes vary), about 170 hours for the Senns.

The 7326 Cetron 1983 NOS with Philips ECC88 Holland "A" frame getter 1975 NOS (combination 2) delivers a direct, powerful and clear sound, but it seems like some overtones are at least reduced (detectable by the slight veil that surrounds high frequency piano tones compared to the combination 5 with the 5998). This 7236 combo has a less atmosphaeric sound (atmosphaeric meant in a positive "lifelike" sense). But also this combo 2 does not sound bad at all - especially the bass side comes tight and defined - its not really an elimination, but rather a matter of taste. I could imagine that the 7236 combo 2 would suit electronic music styles, pop, hiphop and alike quite well. But as there must be a winner in the quest to find the "optimum" (meaning that this "optimum" tube combo would stay in my WA3+ and spare tubes would be ordered) I have to say goodbye to combo 2. But I would like to emphasize again: This combo lets you enjoy the music, too.
In order to make this thread a bit more useful at this probably a bit boring stage I would dare now to recommend some recordings here, too with the intention that the reader may benefit from these nice recordings. After all it’s the music we are after.

Recommendations for recordings:

SACD/CD "Libera me", Lars Danielsson, ACT 2004
I have mentioned this one already before, but just add it again to the list. Orchestral jazz based on the bass / cello playing of Lars Danielsson. If you like classical music but no jazz chances are that you would still like this one. If you like jazz but are not fond of classical you might as well love it. Only if you neither love jazz nor classical this one is not for you. For the rest: A must have. The recording is superb, too. Lars' version of "Both sides now" - solo bass with delicate percussion, is a feast for the discriminating listener and reproduced nicely by the WA3+/HD650 combination. Get it and enjoy.


SACD/CD "MAonSA", Various Artists, M A recordings, 2006
Very much exceptional. The SACD layer and the CD layer carry completely different tracks, giving a total of over 3 hours of music on one disc. My review pertains to the SACD layer only, since my source chooses to play only the SACD of a compound disc. Some of these recordings are simply the best I know, although most were recorded in PCM and then conveyed to DSD. If a disc deserves the attribute "audiophile" then this is it. Track 11, "Meu Amor deu um Lenço" leaves one speechless. Maria Ana Bobone comments in the end "I cannot sing that song" - this was not cut out by the recording engineer. Marias comment is the musical understatement of the century. The song, although a simple melody, may move you to tears - it is so well sung. The recordings were done using custom made microphones designed by the Japanese audiophile Juinichi Yonetani using Bruel & Kjaer diaphragms. An audiophile marvel. The music is either classical or jazzy (world music ?) with "local flavours". A sound revelation in any case.


CD "Senhora de Lapa", Maria Ana Bobone, M A recordings, 1998
I bought this one after the MAonSA mentioned above. I did not regret it. Its again a superb MA one point 96Khz recording. The song "Ternura" has advanced to my most beloved musical pieces. "Meu Amor deu um Lenco" is included as well (see above). Expect tranquillity, serenity and an angle like voice of Maria expressing what I would call "tristeza". It leaves me in a state in which I think of many other musical pieces to be just superficial.


CD "Crystal", Friend'n Fellow, Ruf Records 2006
I have no clue how they manage to get that sound quality to "only" a CD. Absolutely marvellous. The music of Constanze Friend (vocals) and Thomas Fellow (guitar) is captivating. Thomas is a master of the guitar and uses both percussive and subtle techniques. Thomas is a music professor at a university. Constanzes singing blends in beautifully and she is composing too ("Elf", one of the best pieces on the CD). The musical pieces are more on the quiet side, with some nice surprises such as the sudden outbrakes of guitar phrases in Elf or the beautiful setting in of classical rich sounding guitar in "Melting Away". If you do not know Friend'n Fellow you might be up for a pleasant surprise.


CD "Ly", Kari Bremnes, Strange Ways Recordings 2009
Difficult to recommend only one album of Kari Bremnes - all of their recordings are simply superb - as is this one. Some of the songs have a pop like or balladesque appearance and all pieces are musically satisfying. The sound does not fall short of this musical superiority. An absolutely fantastic recording. The singing is in Norwegian. Great is the sentimental "Gje dae ly", Ytterste pol provides some interesting harmonic structures. All this is very much listenable although far from the ordinary, some Nordic song writing with partly pop character, very interesting.


SACD/CD "Closer to the music", Various Artists, Stockfisch Records 2004
Features Allan Taylor, Sara K., Chris Jones, Mike Silver, Steve Strauss, David Munyon, Paul Stephenson, David Roth. All of the 17 songs are very good songwriting , some are downright simply georgeous. The recoding is one of the best - as most productions of Günter Pauler of Stockfisch are simply stunning. Chris Jones' "No sanctuary here" will take your bass reproducion to its limits. Then there is the poetical "Pearl Diver" from David Roth or the well known "Argyle Bridge". The CD layer should as well sound more then satisfying.


I sincerely believe, that by getting the above mentioned records you would make an investment that you would not regret - provided this music styles are for you - I would give it a try even if no rock and roll is included this time. Please blame me right here if I am wrong. I take appraisals, too ;-).)
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