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Do all amps sound the same. - Page 2

post #16 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
Will you agree that you would not be able to tell the difference between the $200 Pioneer and the 12K monoblocks?

USG
I'd give it a try. And I might have a hard time telling the difference.

Every amp doesn't sound radically different from others. But a 300B amp wouldn't sound anything like either of those. I don't put much stock in price differences, either. So many people here think that a price tag denotes a difference. Not always so.

The point I'm trying to make is that not all amps sound the same. If you pit two similar ones, it might be a tough call. If you pit two very different ones, detecting the difference will be easy.

That's why the challenge won't allow comparison of a 300B amp to either of those. The challenge itself admits that there is a difference.
post #17 of 112
Thread Starter 
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post #18 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
WTF!? Haven't others already made it clear that they have a problem with it? It's against the rules of the forum, for a good reason. If you want to discuss DBT's, why don't go do it in the Sound Science forum.
But we are not discussing DBTs, we are discussing if all amps sound the same or not. If you have a problem with the discussion at hand then just ignore this thread. Who made you the hall monitor?
post #19 of 112
Thread Starter 
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post #20 of 112

Probably

I believe I could. All things would have to be constant. Same setup, cables, room, temperature and music. I do agree it is not about money spent. I know of 10k monos that would blow away models considerably higher. Personally, I have yet to meet mono that could be better or the same as a $200 amp. I only hope I will be so lucky some day. I also could not imagine the company being able to keep up with the demand. I would definitely get several for the future.
post #21 of 112
Yeah, they all sound the same...
We buy those $1000++ amplifiers just because we have money burning holes in our pockets, not because they have higher sound quality than a $30 CMoy or something...


Or, maybe not.
post #22 of 112
For anyone that is currently going into panick mode: "Do not discuss DBT in this or any other forums except the Sound Science forum."

So take a deep breath and relax...
post #23 of 112
why does everyone jump to the ridiculous "straw man" extreme

DBT clearly shows that frequency/level response differences do cause audible differences - at level differences well below easy perception as volume or peaks/rolloffs per se

Other obviously audible differences are V,I clipping limits – a little time with truly dynamic music source at loud average levels will leave more headphone/amp combinations clipping more often than most people here seem to appreciate
and the Head-fi penchant for recommendations of “this really good amp” without regard to dynamic headphone’s huge impedance and sensitivity ranges - 16 - 600 Ohms, less than 90 to over 130 dB/mW

The only formulation of “all amplifiers sound the same” worth considering comes with at least these minimum caveats:

Adjusted to the same level/equalized where necessary to match frequency response into the specific load to within DBT established thresholds (~0.1 dB overall level match, relaxing at frequency extremes or for narrow frequency ranges of difference)

Neither amp driven to clipping

When these conditions are achieved then we can consider more subtle distortion issues – again a baseline is for distortion products to be low, of low order and to decrease with signal level – no underbiased Class B with crossover distortions allowed – very easy to avoid in headphone amps where Class A with high dynamic headroom only costs a few Watts

Amps with under sized DC blocking caps, output impedances differing by many % of the headphone’s nominal impedance, limited bandwidth signal path transformers all would be expected to sound different on the DBT frequency response match grounds alone – by hard core objectivist, “by the numbers” engineers – and they would consider such differences “uninteresting” and uninformative on the issue of whether certain devices or circuit approaches have different “sounds”
post #24 of 112
Funny that you post this. In France, we got the results of our second amplifier double blind test two days ago : homecinema-fr.com • Voir le sujet - Le retour des kangourous : ABX 2

The first (november 2008) was here : homecinema-fr.com • Voir le sujet - ABX avec des kangourous : le compte-rendu

First test : Atoll In 100 vs Mimetism 15.2, on JMR EMP2, then JMR Euterpe, then JMR Concorde Signature speakers.
Best ABX score : 12/15. We had agreed that 14/15 would be the minimum. This is a failure, however, the Atoll amplifier have such a strange distorsion that I'm personnaly certain to be able to ABX it (I didn't have the time to, that day). We think that something is broken inside. Harmonic distortion is clearly audible on a 1 kHz sine.
Then Mimetism 15.2 vs InterM M300 (5000 € audiophile vs 150 € pro). No difference was found.

Second test : Nad C 320 BEE (400 €) vs Mimetism 15.2 (5000 €) on JMR Orpheo speakers. Before the test, some very small differences could maybe be heard by some listeners. All failed the ABX test.

During this test, listeners also failed to hear the difference between a straight interconnect and a Behringer Ultra-curve pro performing an A/D conversion, followed by a -12 dB correction on all bands, then a +12 dB correction to get back to a flat response, then a D/A conversion.
post #25 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Isn't this a link to a DBT?
Was this thread moved from a different forum, or did some members get all pissy on the OP without themselves understanding forum rules? Just wondering.
post #26 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by terriblepaulz View Post
Was this thread moved from a different forum, or did some members get all pissy on the OP without themselves understanding forum rules? Just wondering.
Part of it was moved from a different forum to this forum because some folks would not comply with the forum rules.

P.S. And I think it is pretty clear that it was not the OP's initial post that was the problem, but later posts.
post #27 of 112
Yea, my original post was just a bit of a wind up because of what I read at AVS.
I've always *thought* I could hear a difference and I know I can easily hear a difference between SS iCute and tube Lunchboxpro on my DT990pro headphones but those headphones are very revealing so perhaps on speakers it would be a different story.

But one very important point is that you can't drive either amp into clipping for the DBT to be valid. Of course a very powerful amp will sound much better compared to an amp with less power if the weaker amp is driven into clipping to achieve the same loudness level as the more powerful amp. Perhaps that is the mistake people are making when they determine that one amp sounds better than the other. If listened to at a sound level within the limitations of the amp then they probably do sound the same or so close that spending 5 grand on an amp over one grand on amp with the same power output is not warranted.
post #28 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkweg View Post
I've always *thought* I could hear a difference and I know I can easily hear a difference between SS iCute and tube Lunchboxpro on my DT990pro headphones but those headphones are very revealing so perhaps on speakers it would be a different story.
I've always wondered about that. The folks at AVS Forum are generally not listening with headphones, as far as I can tell, and I suspect that most of the DBT's folks refer to from time to time do not involve listening with headphones. I'm not sure I could tell the difference listening through speakers between various components that I know sound different to me through headphones. For me, headphones give me the ability to sort or peer right into the music and to hear every nuance and detail. I don't have the same sort of feeling with speakers, and it may be due to the impact of room acoustics or something else.
post #29 of 112
ive never looked in the "sound science" forum. this is an interesting discussion that i think all of us audio nerds have to at least thought about....i mean, my friends think im crazy for tinkering with all this audio gear when they are perfectly happy with their $200 receivers and $20 cans. but they do go "ooh" when i play some pink floyd or miles davis on vinyl. To some extent i myself am a non believer in general hype about audio. there is just too much stuff out there to keep upgrading. but when a listener makes that initial jump to higher end well...the quest/addiction may just be beginning.
post #30 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio2001 View Post
During this test, listeners also failed to hear the difference between a straight interconnect and a Behringer Ultra-curve pro performing an A/D conversion, followed by a -12 dB correction on all bands, then a +12 dB correction to get back to a flat response, then a D/A conversion.
Ivor Tiefenbrun please note !
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