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Fastest Dynamic Drivers that can match Electrostatic Drivers? - Page 8

post #106 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
The graph is not outside down, it is represented in another time lapse. One square wave starts later than the other.
Now I understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
As an example you can check this one also, to understand what I mean:

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...Type=3&graphID[]=743&graphID[]=733

That is a very nice square wave response.
I find Balance armature has a very nice square. It must be very fast due to its very small size?

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post #107 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post
Jazz, but 500 Hz isn't even considered treble yet, no? I agree GS1K is very treble emphasized if I can call it heavy sibilant, but maybe caused by other things and not by 500 Hz 'too-responsive' response.
Hi RedBull, my friend!

A square wave by nature contains (almost) all frequencies, so it's significant for the whole frequency response. It's just that a 50-Hz square with its larger scale makes higher-frequency inaccuracies seem insignificant, whereas they become more obvious with the 500-Hz signal.

Quote:
And how about this:


HD650 balanced seems as fast (almost) as HD800...
That's the 50-Hz signal, which is less telling. The 500-Hz signal is more significant:



But again the two curves look rather similar. They show that the HD 650 isn't really «slow» and that both have a relatively flat frequency response. But the HD 800 has higher similarity to the original square-wave signal, hence greater accuracy. That's why it is «faster», so to speak.

Quote:
...but why the graph is upside down? I still don't understand this part.
In the interest of comparability the squares of the different headphones are shifted against each other. So it happens that the two curves are about 165°/195° shifted in phase.


Quote:
Out of curiosity, see how beautiful balance armature square is:
Balanced-armature IEMs are indeed some of the fastest and most accurate headphone drivers. They're just inaccurate when it comes to a natural spatial presentation.
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post #108 of 117
You might want to read this paragraph, I think it explains the square wave good and simple:

Quote:
Square Wave Response
A measurement used to evaluate a number of time-domain, amplitude and phase behaviors in audio components such as crossovers, filters and amplifiers. This is measured by injecting a "pure" square wave into the device and connecting the output to an oscilloscope or equivalent software. The appearance of the output waveform from the device gives much qualitative information - the accuracy of its reproduction of the square wave. A number of quantitative measurements can also be obtained from the square-wave response. Some of the most common measurements are: Rise time: The time required for the signal amplitude to change from 10 to 90 percent of the total square-wave amplitude. Overshoot: The amount by which the peak of the square wave exceeds its normal positive or negative amplitude. Large overshoots indicate peaking or excessive phase shifts in the high-frequency response of the device under test. Overshoot normally occurs only on the leading edges of a square wave. Ringing: The tendency of band-limited square waves to oscillate on the peaks. This is largely a subjective measurement with the results stated as the severity of ringing. The greater the high-frequency peaking, the greater the ringing. Tilt: A measure of low-frequency behavior. As low frequencies are filtered, phase shifts are introduced which cause the leading edge of the square wave to rise and the trailing edge to fall at more of an angle. This produces a tilt to the top and bottom of the square wave. The tilt is usually expressed as a percentage of the peak amplitude of the square wave. Slew Rate: A measure of how fast a signal changes from one instantaneous value to another. The ideal square wave changes from one amplitude extreme to the other instantly. Practical devices cannot keep up with this transition and will often have a maximum speed with which they can change. This speed limitation will result in a tilted straight-line portion of the square wave edge.
This is an example between a balanced amateur driver from an IEM vs a dynamic driver from the ATH M50. As said in the paragraph above, these measurements tell you how good the driver is, not how it will sound.



NOTE: I have used different models (ER4P and S) due to how similar they are in the measurements and because they are easier to compare when the lines are close to each other).
post #109 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acix View Post
Hehe, the DT-48S have a very nice treble.
Sorry.. Meant the DT48a..
post #110 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
Balanced-armature IEMs are indeed some of the fastest and most accurate headphone drivers. They're just inaccurate when it comes to a natural spatial presentation.
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What's shown in the graphs is the opposite of this. It shows that armatures have a very slow rise time. This reflects their small bandwidth: they cut off sharply at about 17khz. They also happen to have bad harmonic distortion. Though they have excellent low frequency extension and very quick decay (due to their tiny enclosure, not the drivers), "fast" they most certainly are not.
post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0dhi View Post
What's shown in the graphs is the opposite of this. It shows that armatures have a very slow rise time. This reflects their small bandwidth: they cut off sharply at about 17khz. They also happen to have bad harmonic distortion. Though they have excellent low frequency extension and very quick decay (due to their tiny enclosure, not the drivers), "fast" they most certainly are not.
The attribute «fast» applies to the whole transient response, not just attack. A very short decay is at least as important for the impression of impulsivity. The admittedly lower high-frequency extension is a consequence of the acoustics within the drivers (canals!) and not of limited reaction speed. Nevertheless, 17 or 18 kHz is still beyond the upper limit of most adult ears. Listen to drum beats through an electrostat and though a balanced-armature IEM and tell me which has better attack!

As to harmonic distortion, according to HeadRoom's measurements balanced-armature drivers indeed seem to produce higher harmonic distortion than conventional dynamic drivers (but not higher HD compared to electrostatics). Harmonic distortion isn't coupled with he impression of «speed», though, and balanced armatures still sound explicitly transparent and clear to my ears.
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post #112 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
The attribute «fast» applies to the whole transient response, not just attack. A very short decay is at least as important for the impression of impulsivity. The admittedly lower high-frequency extension is a consequence of the acoustics within the drivers (canals!) and not of limited reaction speed. Nevertheless, 17 or 18 kHz is still beyond the upper limit of most adult ears. Listen to drum beats through an electrostat and though a balanced-armature IEM and tell me which has better attack!

As to harmonic distortion, according to HeadRoom's measurements balanced-armature drivers indeed seem to produce higher harmonic distortion than conventional dynamic drivers (but not higher HD compared to electrostatics). Harmonic distortion isn't coupled with he impression of «speed», though, and balanced armatures still sound explicitly transparent and clear to my ears.
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I agree, they are exceptionally transparent in some respects, but this comes back to what you mentioned about decay. The very quick decay in this case is due to the tiny housing in the drivers are in, not due to the armature drivers themselves. The bandwidth though is a property of the drivers, which are by definition "slow" in that respect.

Since we're talking about something that's quite loosely defined here, I think it helps to know that different elements of the headphone play a part in what we commonly perceive as "speed". The bandwidth of the drivers plays a part, the frequency response of the headphone as a whole plays a part as does the driver enclosure.
post #113 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0dhi View Post
I agree, they are exceptionally transparent in some respects, but this comes back to what you mentioned about decay. The very quick decay in this case is due to the tiny housing in the drivers are in, not due to the armature drivers themselves.
I'm not sure what you mean by the tiny housings being responsible for the short decay. I think the tiny moving mass plays the biggest part, add to this the tight air cushion in the rear of the membrane when it comes to low frequencies.


Quote:
The bandwidth though is a property of the drivers, which are by definition "slow" in that respect.
Only if you just take rise time/impulse onset into consideration. In terms of motion control the high-frequency reproduction is still very «fast». But I would agree that high(est)-frequency resolution might be inferior to good dynamic and electrostatic headphones. So if you will we could call the high-frequency response relatively slow – from the bandwidth and resolution aspect.

However, it's important to know that transient speed (in the sense of accuracy) is never uniform from bottom to top, it varies considerably depending on frequency, and this applies to all driver principles. All things considered I think balanced-armature drivers are still fastest in the sense of accuracy, even though highest frequencies suffer a bit from bandwidth limitation.
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post #114 of 117

Just to add my 2 cents worth to this old discussion

 

All drivers are the same "speed" - 5,000 cycles per second is the same 5,000/sec from an electrostatic as well as from a dynamic.  Also, the speed of sound is the same regardless of the type of driver used....

 

Typically what users perceive as "speed" is a mix of high-frequency response characteristics, dynamic compression (or lack thereof) and decay time.  But to to talk about "speed" is really an inaccurate syntax.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by milosz - 8/25/11 at 3:44am
post #115 of 117
post #116 of 117

Electrostatic drivers are also light sounding, and not just fast. 

post #117 of 117

What's one of the "faster" electrostats? I'll be hearing a few at a headphone meet soon... just in case there's opinions on that...

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