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My cable test enterprise - Page 7

post #91 of 438
2/1/09 at 12:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxvla View Post
Nick, I'll send you my .5m pair of Zu Oxyfuel RCA if you would like to test them. They retail for $139. I'm not using them at the moment.
Many thanks, PM sent.
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post #92 of 438
2/6/09 at 2:41am
So, have we concluded beyond a doubt -- aside from cable construction -- that there is no significant difference between ICs?
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post #93 of 438
2/6/09 at 3:35am
10 big tips to greatly improve your system performance without costing a fortune
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post #94 of 438
2/6/09 at 11:05am
"If you measure the frequency characteristics of certain RCA cable, you will be
surprised by the result. In one meter of RCA cable, the 100Khz frequency
degrades about 3 to 4 db."

What does "certain" mean? Does that mean using 40 awg wire on a 100 watt speaker system? Don't laugh, I had a friend who did something just this and couldn't understand why his sub wouldn't work properly.

Really, that statement is just misleading. And who cares about 100 Khz in audio apart from engineers? Can people hear frequencies that high?
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post #95 of 438
2/6/09 at 1:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by odigg View Post
"If you measure the frequency characteristics of certain RCA cable, you will be
surprised by the result. In one meter of RCA cable, the 100Khz frequency
degrades about 3 to 4 db."

Really, that statement is just misleading. And who cares about 100 Khz in audio apart from engineers? Can people hear frequencies that high?
Not only is it misleading but it is also factually inaccurate, 50ohm cable can carry a 1mhz signal with less than 2db roll off for up to 100ft .


Quote:
6. If you measure the frequency characteristics of certain RCA cable, you will be surprised by the result. In one meter of RCA cable, the 100Khz frequency degrades about 3 to 4 db. This is due to the stray capacitance on the cable. So if you run an audio signal through a two meter or even three meter cable, the sound picture and dynamics will be darkened by at least 5% compared to a shorter cable.
Absolute bollocks on so many levels.
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post #96 of 438
2/7/09 at 4:30pm
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/c...ml#post5397720
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post #97 of 438
2/7/09 at 5:05pm
Thread Starter 
I just tested the Sidewinder vs the stock cable using a cymbal crash with lots of harmonics and transients. To cut a long story short there were miniscule differences between the two cables as before , never more than 0.68db and averaging 0.046db from 20 - 20K. I have graphed the reference cymbal crash, and the two cables - differences are miniscule.


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post #98 of 438
2/8/09 at 12:05am
Thread Starter 
Stock and Sidewinder

Complex set of square waves from 10hz to 10000hz, maximum difference 0.027, average diference 0.0028

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post #99 of 438
2/8/09 at 2:26am
Great work Nick -- one of the best contributions to head-fi I've seen thus far. Thanks.

This may not be up to the standards of NASA, per say, but IMO, it should be enough to have quite the ripple across the cable industry, if given enough attention.

And considering the economy, there's probably a few people that wouldn't be too happy about this. But unfortunately, the truth doesn't always feel good.

Nick, I'd sincerely be on the lookout for ominous looking black helicopters orbiting your house, or MIBs following you around the grocery store.
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post #100 of 438
2/8/09 at 3:05am
A cheap and simple cable test for anyone who wants to see if there is a difference between cables simply needs to have an HD600 or 650 and the cords for both. $20 cable expenditure max. Go back and forth and see if you can hear a difference.
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post #101 of 438
2/8/09 at 4:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevM2 View Post
A cheap and simple cable test for anyone who wants to see if there is a difference between cables simply needs to have an HD600 or 650 and the cords for both. $20 cable expenditure max. Go back and forth and see if you can hear a difference.
They will tell you its all in your head and that there really is no difference and then refer to this chart and go "SEE"?
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post #102 of 438
2/8/09 at 4:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevM2 View Post
A cheap and simple cable test for anyone who wants to see if there is a difference between cables simply needs to have an HD600 or 650 and the cords for both. $20 cable expenditure max. Go back and forth and see if you can hear a difference.
I think I know what point you're trying to make. And since I am unable to do such comparisons myself, my question is, how exactly is the data we've gathered thus far on this thread diverging from actual listening results? Is it possible there are some difficult to measure dynamics involving cable bandwidth, or something? Is it possible that these dynamics are revealed only in subjective listening tests?

How exactly is it that we have people claiming there are differences in sound between cables, when we have data showing otherwise? Placebo?
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post #103 of 438
2/8/09 at 5:40am
Honestly, I don't know the actual science behind why cables sound different, but they do. Different metals have different conducting properties and they have different purity levels as well as design structures, so maybe all of those variables go into ultimately affecting the sound...

I bet if you did a test with the same amp using different tubes, you probably wouldn't get very different results between tubes, yet it's pretty commonly accepted that tubes can alter sound.

Also, it ultimately comes down to what you hear with your ears. I don't know anyone who can look at a graph and say, hey, the AKG K701 has a wider soundstage than the Sennheiser HD600, but the Senns are tonally more accurate. To find out some information, you'll simply have to listen to it yourself. I recommended the Senn cable test, because it is cheap, and although the different isn't absolutely huge between the two cables, it is noticable.
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post #104 of 438
2/8/09 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevM2 View Post
Honestly, I don't know the actual science behind why cables sound different, but they do. Different metals have different conducting properties and they have different purity levels as well as design structures, so maybe all of those variables go into ultimately affecting the sound...

I bet if you did a test with the same amp using different tubes, you probably wouldn't get very different results between tubes, yet it's pretty commonly accepted that tubes can alter sound.

Also, it ultimately comes down to what you hear with your ears. I don't know anyone who can look at a graph and say, hey, the AKG K701 has a wider soundstage than the Sennheiser HD600, but the Senns are tonally more accurate. To find out some information, you'll simply have to listen to it yourself. I recommended the Senn cable test, because it is cheap, and although the different isn't absolutely huge between the two cables, it is noticable.
If there is any difference between cables it would show up as an electrical property. If there is something else than an electrical property that affects the sound, well, there's a Nobel Prize waiting for whomever pins that down. Occam's Razor is useful here; is there an unknown field of physics or are people just trying to cash in? Be sure to check the difference between retail prices and the cost of manufacturing cables. That should tell you more than any test ever will.

Different tubes measure differently. You can plot and trace the curves of tubes. There has never been an argument that different tubes behave the same.

I have four different Sennheiser cables. They all sound the same to me. The aftermarket ones are well made, though. I like the heavy construction and I do think they look nice.

And while it has been beaten into the ground here, placebo and it's companion suggestion are very real and very demonstrable effects. There's no shame in falling for either - everyone has. But like optical illusions, the reality is that there is an illusion. That's why, in over 30 years of cable controversy, no one has ever passed a blind test. That's because it's not really there. The small differences fall below the threshold of audibility and no one can tell the difference without actually seeing the cable.
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post #105 of 438
2/8/09 at 6:55am
KevM2,

Are you saying that differences between cables cannot be objectively measured?

I am going to say that I do think it is possible to decipher all aspects of a cable, and that -- unlike headphones -- there is no such thing as a "subjective listening difference."

What cable A delivers to headphone X, is what cable A delivers to headphone X, period. Now, what one hears from headphone X -- compared to another person -- is a different matter all together, what with different ear structures and what not.
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