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My cable test enterprise - Page 8

post #106 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
If there is any difference between cables it would show up as an electrical property. If there is something else than an electrical property that affects the sound, well, there's a Nobel Prize waiting for whomever pins that down. Occam's Razor is useful here; is there an unknown field of physics or are people just trying to cash in? Be sure to check the difference between retail prices and the cost of manufacturing cables. That should tell you more than any test ever will.

Different tubes measure differently. You can plot and trace the curves of tubes. There has never been an argument that different tubes behave the same.

I have four different Sennheiser cables. They all sound the same to me. The aftermarket ones are well made, though. I like the heavy construction and I do think they look nice.

And while it has been beaten into the ground here, placebo and it's companion suggestion are very real and very demonstrable effects. There's no shame in falling for either - everyone has. But like optical illusions, the reality is that there is an illusion. That's why, in over 30 years of cable controversy, no one has ever passed a blind test. That's because it's not really there. The small differences fall below the threshold of audibility and no one can tell the difference without actually seeing the cable.
Tell us more about the cables you have spent time with?
post #107 of 438
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/wha...ml#post1665166
post #108 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
The aftermarket ones are well made, though. I like the heavy construction and I do think they look nice.
Bam! And that's really the only reason I'd take a $30 IC over a stocky; build quality.
I'm considering Blue Jeans, or Vampire Wire.

Now, for the HD650 headphone cable, I have no idea, as all that I've seen are well over $100-$200 ($400 for Jena?!?!? wtf?!?!). There is no logical reason at all for me to spend that much; not for build quality, looks, etc -- nothing.

I am pretty sure if I spent such a large amount on cables, my mind would almost certainly not accept the fact that there is no difference, and thus, would create a fantasy were the cable "sounds superior."

Check this out: Why don’t you use oxygen-free copper (OFC) in your... cables.[?]

This is were I purchased the cable for my Les Paul.
post #109 of 438
One more question, if it is as you say "Placebo" then why would many different people report the same results?
post #110 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation View Post
Bam! And that's really the only reason I'd take a $30 IC over a stocky; build quality.
I'm considering Blue Jeans, or Vampire Wire.

Now, for the HD650 headphone cable, I have no idea, as all that I've seen are well over $100-$200 ($400 for Jena?!?!? wtf?!?!). There is no logical reason at all for me to spend that much; not for build quality, looks, etc -- nothing.

I am pretty sure if I spent such a large amount on cables, my mind would almost certainly not accept the fact that there is no difference, and thus, would create a fantasy were the cable "sounds superior."

Check this out: Why don’t you use oxygen-free copper (OFC) in your... cables.[?]

This is were I purchased the cable for my Les Paul.
Thats a shame because you will never hear the full potential of your headphones, no matter what you plug them into.
post #111 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by olblueyez View Post
Thats a shame because you will never hear the full potential of your headphones, no matter what you plug them into.
Feel free to reiterate.
post #112 of 438
Ok, I will reiterate, some people cant be helped. Its funny how much time everyone is spending debunking cables instead of listening to them. You guys think because a few cables sound alike that they all sound alike even if you have not tried them. Tell me something, what happens to people who spend all their time recommending equipment they have never tried? For me, you guys are in that group.
post #113 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by olblueyez View Post
Tell me something, what happens to people who spend all their time recommending equipment they have never tried? For me, you guys are in that group.
But we aren't recommending any equipment -- just clear-headed, science-based, logic.

I'm perfectly willing to accept if there was a difference of sound between cables, because if there was a difference, it would be measurable.

Could you tell me why or how a difference could not be measurable?
post #114 of 438
There is a definite difference perceivable to my ears and to the ears of many between headphone cables. This forum is littered with people who prefer Cardas, Equinox, A Pure Sound, ALO or any of the other variety of cables. Are they all suffering from placebo affect?

Do you all create charts before you go buy different sets of tubes or op-amps to put into your amplifiers? Or do you trust your ears to describe differences in clarity, airiness, soundstage, etc. Why is it that tubes or op-amps suffer no need for charts, but are fine 'going by ear' to describe differences in sound, but cables do?

Honestly, it seems like some of you don't want to pay the money for a cable upgrade, so you are hoping that they don't provide a difference in sound quality so you won't have to shell out the money. Well, you won't have to shell out the money if you don't want to, but cables can make a very perceptible difference in sound quality.

If many people who spent $300 for a cable and heard little to no difference between the $300 cable and the stock cable, they wouldn't merely trick themselves that there is a difference. They'd return the cable and write a scathing review, especially since many of these cable manufacturers have 30 day return policies.

http://www.onhifi.com/product/stefan...rt_equinox.htm
Here is a review by Wes Phillips who reviewed the Equinox cables. Are reviewers who receive cables to demo for free also affected by a psychological need to justify their purchase, even though they've paid nothing?

This review is also very interesting:
http://www.soundstage.com/allinyourh...head200412.htm

I have a test for some of you since charts tell everything. Bring me the charts of 3 headphones you haven't heard and using only the chart, describe which headphones has a bigger soundstage, smoother and more upfront vocals, and which has the most realistic tone.

Also, since charts are heralded to such a golden standard and our ears are insufficient tools to judge differences in sound by, I wonder many of you will be willing to spend $300 on a headphone solely by looking at a chart, since they can show all perceptible differences in sound.

For owners of Sennheiser HD600s or 650s, I've already recommended a very cheap way to test if there is a difference between cables. Test the difference between the 600 and 650 cables. It'll cost you $20 to $30 max. The difference won't be as significant as the more expensive cables, but it will be there.
post #115 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation View Post
But we aren't recommending any equipment -- just clear-headed, science-based, logic.

I'm perfectly willing to accept if there was a difference of sound between cables, because if there was a difference, it would be measurable.

Could you tell me why or how a difference could not be measurable?
What you are doing is to say "A cable that I have never listened to makes no audible difference", and that is the same as trying to debunk tube amps without experiencing one. I know you cannot imagine that you are wrong, and frankly I think that is the whole problem. All this doesnt seem very intelligent to people who bother to take the time to hear the differences. I still have never received an answer to one question "Does shielding affect sound quality"? Because if it does then this entire thread is bunk.
post #116 of 438
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by olblueyez View Post
I still have never received an answer to one question "Does shielding affect sound quality"? Because if it does then this entire thread is bunk.
Er, no. This thread has presented measured frequency reponses of different cables with differing shielding using a variety of different ***complex*** signals. I have one more expensive cable (a Zu) to test next week but so far no combination of material and shielding has altered the FR to any meaningful degree.

If I get the time I may do some noise tests, but since noise is composed of a combination frequencies it will show up in a FR so I have probably covered it already.

I will do some digital silence tests and check for noise, will that make you happy ?
post #117 of 438
You do not have to try every cable to tell that it makes no audible difference. If an unshielded paperclip delivers the same signal as a shielded silver cable and they are as different as you can get, then how is a copper cable going to sound different than another copper cable?

Yes, people have heard differences in cables, but they have not been able to distinguish them blindly. Until then, I am sorry to say, it is placebo. If someone wants to do an experiment in the sound science forum, where they blindly pick a different cable, be my guest. You may also win a million dollars from Randy.
post #118 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation View Post

This may not be up to the standards of NASA, per say, but IMO, it should be enough to have quite the ripple across the cable industry, if given enough attention.
HAHAHAHA. Sorry. Not making fun of you, just laughing at the idea that this will cause a ripple in the cable industry.

The cable argument has been going on for a long time. James Randi even offered 1 million dollars to somebody who could tell the difference between cables in a controlled test.

Myself, I think cables, even ones that are highly rated here, sound the same as regular headphones cables. People would argue that my hearing isn't very good, and that is not a point I can contest. I haven't scored that well even on blind tests comparing MP3s to FLAC.

There are people who don't believe in cable. There are people who do. I think the fight will go on forever.
post #119 of 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
I just tested the Sidewinder vs the stock cable using a cymbal crash with lots of harmonics and transients.

Thanks, especially for this measurement!


Quote:
To cut a long story short there were minuscule differences between the two cables as before, never more than 0.68db...
Actually 0.68 dB is surprisingly non-minuscule for a cable -- since cables are «passive devices» incapable of altering the signal shape in the audible range -- and definitely not below the hearing threshold. You have just discovered a spectacular phenomenon and in your typical modesty have called it...


Quote:
and averaging 0.046db from 20 - 20K. I have graphed the reference cymbal crash, and the two cables - differences are minuscule
...even twice.

Let's savour it one more time: A cable alters a transient signal by 0.68 dB. How does it do it, physically? As a «cable believer» I have indeed pinned my hopes on transient measurements; nonetheless I didn't expect such a «huge» deviation.

Thanks again!
.
post #120 of 438
Thread Starter 
So now you accept that my method is okay, now that it seems to support your view, you do not think that the digitization has destroyed the differences now

The differences are greatest at the following points

(Hz)diffref lev
177650.6837-55.7531
194880.6321-57.5156
177860.5650-54.3802
178080.5525-53.7608
178290.5288-52.1657
197030.4755-54.0274(*)
197670.4068-50.5246
195090.3818-56.0924
178510.3283-52.2641
190350.3046-50.5907
197460.3021-52.3218

The differences are in the high frequency range a range which is much less audible and also the frequencies are in the -50 to -57db range which is 30 to 37 db down on the fundamental.

But if you think you can tell the difference PM me your email address I and will send you the most typical sample of each (or all 20 if you like) and you can tell me if you can hear the difference.

The best part is yet to come, the stock cable was better , it had least signal attenuation in these frequencies apart from (*).
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