The Sennheiser HD 800: The First Listen, The First Review - Page 128

Actually a 10dB difference is required for a perceived doubling of volume. And as I said in my original post, the general consensus is that 3dB is what the average person can detect. Some people can detect 1dB, I'm sure some can do better than 1dB as well. None of that hair-splitting changes the argument I was making though - if the specs are correct, you would expect the HD800 to sound very similar to the HD25-I (with the exceptions I noted previously).

sure are big!

For one, Sennheiser is based in Germany and the US dollar continues to strengthen against the Euro. So if Sennheiser sticks with their Euro-based price for the HD800, it should actually become cheaper in US dollars as the dollar continues to strengthen against the Euro. Of course, they may choose to increase their Euro price to offset the foreign exchange losses that they're now suffering, but that remains to be seen.

Whereas (I suspect), what you are seeing with the JVC price is based on the retail prices being charged by pricejapan.com. They base all of their prices (in whatever currency that is used by their customers for payment) on the Japanese Yen price that they want to receive. In other words, they adjust the US dollar price to make sure that what they get in US dollars when converted back to Yen protects their Yen-based price expectations. As such, since the US dollar continues to weaken against the Yen, the price that pricejapan.com charges for the JVC DX1000 in US dollars keeps going up. They pass on the foreign exchange risk to their customers, which is a smart way to do business.

There is no indication that Sennheiser will do anything remotely like this (at least they never have in the past for any of their other products). Note that (if my assumption is right that your JVC prices are based on pricejapan.com) JVC hasn't done this sort of thing either. In other words, the price hike you're seeing for the JVC's is based on a retailer's pricing structure, not on the manufacturer's pricing structure.

Edit:

Note to self: Read all new posts in this thread before responding. Seems that most of the points I've made above have already been covered by others.

Well okay i have had this discussion before because i know that every 3db a signal strength or the power required doubles but that doesn't equate to volume level from what i was told out here at one point. I more derived it from the general rule in ham radio and power output vs antenna gain and basically to gain 3 db in signal you need to double your power. You may be right as far as volume goes but this is making me sleepy and its bed time here, good night.

Ask davidhunternyc. I think he's working on a research paper about this! It's not empirically based, but that's Ok.

No, seriously. A lot of people are having fun (on either side of the debate) in terms of all of the speculation that is going on about this. Truth is, nobody knows because that day hasn't yet arrived. Some people think that the street price will eventually settle at $1,000 or so, and maybe even a little less. They seem to be basing this on what has happened with the street prices of other Sennheiser headphones, as well as the prices of headphones in that same general price range as the HD800 that are made by other manufacturers.

On the other side of the argument, there seems to be some strong support for the notion that Sennheiser will be making an effort to ensure that all of the vendors that will be selling the HD800 will continue to agree (as they've done initially) to maintain the $1,400 selling price. How long will Sennheiser be expecting their chosen vendors to maintain the $1,400 price? Nobody seems to know.

Thus, the truth of the matter is that it's anyone's guess at this point.

Do you know the plastic is painted, and not that coloring was added to the mix?

LMAO!! This is just too funny.

Probably old news but from TTVJ:

"It now looks like the HD800 could be shipping earlier than March - like in mid to late February. So get on board and get in on the fist batch from Sennheiser!!!"

Verry Verry close now!

Also, on the Headroom forum there's talk about a short initial shipment...very low numbers from Tyll...

Arrgghh!

Wow, fast growing thread!

I don't have much time and can't keep up with the thread but will answer what I can quickly.

First, a bit a bit about the way I try to judge things like this, whether food, cars, or tools, such as headphones. I start with a perfect score, trying to guess what perfection would be as much as I can, then I knock of points for every flaw I find. This way is not enjoyable, as I am not looking for anything good, only the bad, but it does help me get through a review in a more methodical way than the alternatives. If I find things that are above my previous benchmark, I award bonus points.

I didn't get time to get to know the HD800, they were not driven by sufficient amps in my opinion, and there was a lot of background noise. Saying that I think I did a fair job running through my known material. I should probably have taken notes if I thought about posting, but was just testing them for myself.

In summary, from my impressions they are right up there with the best I’ve ever heard and only the question of appropriate power remains to be answered for me. These are definitely not just an improved HD650.

I have read a little of another thread where John (whom I like, and feel is often misunderstood/misinterpreted) complains about the plastic.

From what I can tell the point of his argument is not that they are made from plastic, the fact that they are made from plastic is 100% fine if that is the best material for the job (and I think it probably is in this instance). The problem he has, and I do agree, is when plastic is used, but is pretending to be metal, when it's painted/colored to look like metal. The problem is when companies try to fool people into thinking that something is metal, when it is not. Its a credibility issue, we are being fooled (unsuccessfully in most cases).

It's the attempted deception that I hate.

I do not believe Senn is trying to fool anyone, I don't think the plastic used is attempting to imitate metal in this case, but I agree with David that it should be acceptable for any manufacturer to be proud of plastic! Show it off, give it one of the countless finishes that look wonderful, and that only plastic can give!

The HD800 are just the right side of plastic-as-metal in my estimation, so they can pull it off, so to speak... They don't look fake, cheap or incongruous, I like their build and materials. I think they probably did actually choose very good materials, there is no obvious sign of the costs which all manufacturers strip out of anything between prototype and production. That ring driver was surely expensive to create, and probably not cheap to manufacture.

Regarding fooling people, my final comments on the Freq. response. I applaud Senn for giving a range with a tolerance, but am still extremely skeptical that the HD800 will achieve these frequencies when they are on a human head, and I guarantee that they will not do so with most amplifiers, I heard it myself

Saying that, I don’t think Senn are doing anything misleading at all, they are doing more than most manufacturers in that regard, and those specs I’m sure are what they measured in their lab, somehow.

I am not 100% sure and am open to alternatives but I think the issue is that if the HD800 present too much of a load to the amp, the amp may not be giving the HD800 the signal they require to play 14Hz at only 3db down relative to, say, 1kHz. Does that make sense?

And for measurement, b0dhi knows his stuff, read his posts!

There is no way the HD800 were flat within +/- 3db(A) from 20Hz to 20kHz, nevermind 14Hz to 44.1 kHz. At least not that pair, on my head with my amp, in a sine sweep that comes out my imods caps as flat. I know how my ears respond to a flat sweep, and that was not it.

They are still extremely flat though, very, very good. Just not perfect, if that’s what people are expecting after reading the specs. Marketing is marketing and you’d be a fool to believe it. Advertising and misrepresenting are generally synonymous in my opinion. Senns figures are hardly a peer reviewed study, accurate as they may be in Senn’s lab.

From:

Sennheiser HD800 Headphones HD 800 Audiophile Headphone

• HD800 Frequency Response: 6-51,000 Hz (-10 dB), 13-44,100 Hz (-3 dB)



Sennheiser USA - HD800 - Product Specs

Frequency Response

14 - 44,100 Hz (- 3 dB) (Not 13-44,100)

Sennheiser Electronic - HD 800

14 – 44,100 Hz (- 3 dB) again.

OK it's only a single Hz! But what are the tolerances on their measurements?

Is it 14 – 44,100 Hz (- 3 dB) +/- 1Hz, 2Hz, 100Hz?

Marketing.

Sidenote re credibility, Headroom (surely to be the worlds largest retailer of HD800?) advertise them as 8Hz to 50kHz, no mention of a tolerance. Not 6Hz to 51kHz either. Most people will see that spec, whatever Senn intended. Just an observation.

Sennheiser HD 800 @ HeadRoom - Right Between Your Ears

Who’s “trustworthy figures” are the real truth?

The answer is “Who cares!” It doesn’t matter! The HD800 are very flat, will almost certainly do very deep bass when driven by an arc welder of an amp and sound great, that’s enough. 

Senn need to provide figures, dare I say it, bogus/optimistic/unrepeatable at home figures, in order to market the HD800. It's a pity but that's life.

Hi Guys

Sure, I can say that heard no flaws in the soundstage. They do a very good job, not up on the stage like Grado and not in the back row like some cans. Accurate and precise placement, all good.

No, more like neither. I do like K701 but HD800 have better bass and are in another league elsewhere, not just to K701/2 but to HD650 as well. They do have good air like the AKG but with more presence and solidity.

Thanks 

True. HD650 were there to really show how much better HD800 were. There is much stiffer competition out there. Looking forward to closer comparisons with them.

[QUOTE=robm321;5358953] I think it may be a case of where it is more like the K701, where it is all there but just isn't felt.? The GS-1000 simulates the impact and rumble that you usually get from speakers. The PS-1s give a thick round thump kind of impact, so I guess it's a matter of preference which one you like, but I doubt amplification will change the weight or extension of the bass significantly. It sounds like the bottom end is rolled off.

I'm mostly happy about the fact that it seems to be very fast and that the timbre is accurate to the level of the K-1000.

My worries are that the highs may not be accurate if they have smooth edges. That's the one thing I didn't like about the PS-1. It sounds very liquid and extended in the highs but long term the artificialness of the treble bothered me. It was too smooth even when the recordings shouldn't have been.

It sounds like the HD800 may not be the headphone to take over the top tier but just another variety. I was surprised that he said $1K would be where they would fit. That brings the FOTM down a notch since Steve's tastes seem dead on with mine.
QUOTE]

Thanks Rob, just to clear up a few things IMO though, K701, K1000 and GS1000 definitely do not go all the way down without rolling off, under any circumstances. The HD800 might, and I suspect they will, given how well they responded to a better amp than DAC1. No one here has heard them from a monster amp AFAIK yet. When they do, I think they will be impressed and satisfied with the bass depth and impact. These things are really power hungry, the LISA couldn’t keep them happy.

I think that the amp will make a massive difference.

At this stage though, I have heard more impressive bottom end performance from other cans, for what that’s worth…

Smooth edges on the highs. I didn’t explain that very well, the treble was not rolled or smoothed off at all in the treble ranges, I was just trying to explain how they handle sibilance, and I did a bad job. Only in sibilance did I notice something different to other cans, and I’d like to hear more to dissect them more thoroughly. They do better than S-1 in the highs, much better with cymbals and very high soprano sax etc.

I really meant that in the sense that based on what I heard that is where I personally would place them in my personal decision to buy them at this time, I didn’t mean it as a measure of their worth at all, it was just a personal comment on my own sense of their value to me at the time. You shouldn’t take it to mean that that’s where they rightfully fit in the market, as I can’t answer that generally, and definitely not specifically, as there are a few absolutely fantastic headphones available out there to compete with.

I also really, truly loved the ED9 bass when I had them, I’m sure if you search for posts containing ED9 by stevenkelby you’ll find me saying so back then! Truth is, the ED9 bass is artificial. The fact that they are huge fun and very enjoyable, and I regretted selling mine sometimes, is beside the point. For some people though, they may love the bass and the specific bass tone/timbre (importantly) of the ED9 enough that nothing else will do.

I installed competition car stereos for a year or so and I do understand the difference between 1. Muddy, boomy, massive, wins db drag races and is fun-for-2-minutes-then-just-gives-you-a-headache bass, 2. Freaking awesome, powerful, tooth rattling, tuneful, rich, impressively punchy bass that everybody loves, and… 3. Accurate Bass.

I’ve moved on to the latter in my systems now. I don’t like to but I’ve gotta say ED9 are closer to number 2.

99.999% certainly. 

100% certainly not 20Hz went into the amp at the same level as 1000Hz.

100% agree. Bring a big amp to the demo though 

Adam, I think all that they mean is that the driver is angled so much that the sound waves leaving the doughnut arrive at the front parts of your ear before they reach the back parts of your ear. Just like in real life from loudspeakers etc. The delay produced by virtue of this angle in the HD800 is enough for your ears to notice the difference and be fooled into thinking the sound is coming more from in front that the sides, as with most cans.

I must admit, I buy that and think it works.

People will buy it at $1400 just to try it. People spend more than that on TVs. How often does a TV give you chills down your spine, make you cry or completely and convincingly take you away to a live performance in your imagination? Lots of phones do those things, and it makes us passionate.

The collapse of capitalism won’t help, but there will still be plenty of takers. For every dollar you lose from your share portfolio, someone has that dollar, it doesn’t disappear. The Great Depression created the wealth of the Vanderbilt’s, Rothschild’s, Rockefellers etc. The modern day equivalents will all want headphones

Kind of BS. Production capacity is not an issue. At $1400 each they’ll build another factory if they have to. If they are handmade they’ll employ and train more hands. There is no part that can’t be produced very quickly and cheaply now, and they will do so if the demand is there. This artificial restriction nonsense is a marketing ploy. No wait, scam is a more accurate word. They will do all the can to create consumers desperate, grateful and willing to pay full price to get their hands on the “rare and exclusive” HD800. It will probably work, but there will be no 2 year waits. All the big money is already spent on the r&d now they will capitalize as much as they can.

Production is cheap and easy.

Ultrasone tried the same thing either ED9. Worked too at 1st, but discounting spoiled it. HD800 will of course ultimately be discounted too but not as quickly as ED9 were.

Sennheiser isn’t Headamp or Xin, they can and will increase production if the demand is there, which it might be, who knows? No one will have to wait a year for these though, guaranteed. Remind me of this in a year if I’m wrong and I’ll eat my words

On the driver, I suspect that the ring driver is indeed all it’s hyped up to be. Don’t be surprised to see ring drivers coming soon to a loudspeaker near you. It works.

I almost certainly wont read or reply for at least a few days now, sorry, but I will try when I get time. I’m just too busy now and really shouldn’t be writing this!

Steve.

smashing set of replies steve, many thanks for taking time out to answer mine and of course the others, great and interesting reading!

Excellent post Steve.


Ring drivers *have* already been used in loudspeakers I'm told - as a compression driver is some horns.

Some ring-radiator speaker drivers:


ScanSpeak R2904/700000



Vifa XT25TG30-04




Fostex FT96H
.

Geez, my $1500 Polk LSi15 loudspeakers have ring radiator tweeters...........and the design is at least 7 years old.

Could we please stop this plastic discussion in this thread?

Damn it, just seeing the word makes me sick. There is already one separate thread for the haters...

A pony keg of good beer? Tyll, you're truly one of a kind.