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K702 in the Studio - Page 7

post #91 of 298
2/13/09 at 6:11am
Its fun that you also call the RS-1 for studio monitors, cause I always felt that I was the only one that thought this and used them for this.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

AKG K701 Studio Headphones
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AKG K 702 Headphones
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post #92 of 298
2/13/09 at 6:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvanrij View Post
Its fun that you also call the RS-1 for studio monitors, cause I always felt that I was the only one that thought this and used them for this.
Yes, funny, I had them in my studio for 3 weeks. Quite impressive. Afterall, they're reference headphones and they're quite balanced and very fun!
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post #93 of 298
2/13/09 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acix View Post
It's a stretch to call the K702 flat, But they are definitely balanced.
Flat FR is an essential (if not the most important) characteristic of any studio speaker system used for mixing. Speaker Manufacturers X goes out of their way to provide data to the potential consumer that their speakers have a flatter FR than Manufacturer Y. And on top of that, studio owners spend literally millions of dollars to treat their control rooms to flatten the FR curve from already very flat systems. The best reason to have headphones in all the decidedly non-worldclass project rooms out there is because it's the one device that can short-circuit the massive expenditure needed to create a flat room. And it's not essential for you to have this characteristic? Forgive me if I can't understand this...
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post #94 of 298
2/13/09 at 11:22am
I forgive you, you need to understand that its not all about FR. The big idea of mixing is that the mix should sound decent/good on ALL speakers, not just the very good ones with very good FR's. If you mix it to sound good on a studio monitor, it should sound good on a stax SR-007 and on a ipod earbud, and also on some laptop speakers, and some Energy connaisseur's
etc. etc.
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post #95 of 298
2/13/09 at 11:34am
thats right vvanrij but accurate speakers/headphones will make that task easier... given you are not used to another particular monitor with a certain sound already (and know how to translate to your wanted output sound from that speaker/headphone)
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post #96 of 298
2/13/09 at 12:05pm
True, but people who keep talking about flat FR's don't know the half of what a accurate speaker is: Studio monitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many audio engineers use monitor speakers for audio mixing and mastering tasks. This enables the engineer to mix a track that will sound pleasing on the widest range of playback systems (i.e. high-end audio, low quality radios in clock radios and "boom boxes", in club PA systems, in a car stereo or a home stereo). Accurate sound reproduction will also mean that the engineer is less likely to miss any undesirable tonal qualities of the recording, and so can compensate for them. On the other hand, some engineers prefer to work with monitors that are known to be flawed in ways that are representative of the systems end-users are likely to be listening with. In fact, most professional audio production studios have several sets of monitors spanning the range of playback systems in the market. This may include a sampling of large speakers as may be used in movie theatres, hi-fi style speakers, car speakers, portable music systems, PC speakers and consumer-grade headphones.

Etc. its a pretty good article to get some basic information.
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post #97 of 298
2/13/09 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvanrij View Post
I forgive you, you need to understand that its not all about FR. The big idea of mixing is that the mix should sound decent/good on ALL speakers, not just the very good ones with very good FR's. If you mix it to sound good on a studio monitor, it should sound good on a stax SR-007 and on a ipod earbud, and also on some laptop speakers, and some Energy connaisseur's
etc. etc.
I think you missed my point by a mile or two, but it may be a language barrier. FR is only one characteristic of speakers, of course, but I was referring to headphones. Headphones are not suitable for mixing, but they do have this one incredible characteristic and that is that they do not become entangled with room modes and such. So, if you have a headphone with a tested flat FR you can use it to spot check a mix, even if your room is not perfectly corrected. Since the 701/2s are admittedly not flat, they not only do you no good for spot checking, they can lead to errors in the mix as you adjust your mix to their built-in eq. If you have a headphone with a flat FR, you could mix on speakers in a problematic room, spot check on the headphones towards the end of the mix, realize that there's a problem and fix it. This is the typical use for headphones in the mixing room. Do you understand?
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post #98 of 298
2/13/09 at 2:02pm
I understand you, but that doesn't make it any less wrong .

Quote:
Originally Posted by bias View Post
My point on FR was about headphones, not speakers. FR is only one characteristic of speakers, of course.

And only one characteristic of a headphone, of course.

Headphones are not suitable for mixing, but they do have this one incredible characteristic and that is that they do not become entangled with room modes and such. So, if you have a headphone with a flat FR you can use it to spot check a mix

You don't need a flat FR response for that, brighter headphones like the 325i are actually alot more usefull to spot check a mix, because they can exaggerate a mix's flaws.

, even if your room is not perfectly corrected. Since the 701/2s are admittedly not flat, they not only do you no good for spot checking,

Same point, see above.

they can lead to errors in the mix as you adjust your mix to their built-in eq.

Altough headphones don't have a eq, I do understand what you are saying and I agree with you on this, given that you would use the wrong headphone for the wrong mix.

If you have a headphone with a flat FR, you could mix on speakers in a problematic room, spot check on the headphones towards the end of the mix, realize that there's a problem and fix it.

This is really contrary to your previous statements. You need speakers because a headphone can't give you that same presentation (forward, with room reflections etc.) But you could use headphones when you have a problematic room to correct it?? So then the headphone would compensate for speakers in a bad room?? Doesn't make any sense.
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post #99 of 298
2/13/09 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvanrij View Post
I understand you, but that doesn't make it any less wrong .
This is really contrary to your previous statements. You need speakers because a headphone can't give you that same presentation (forward, with room reflections etc.) But you could use headphones when you have a problematic room to correct it?? So then the headphone would compensate for speakers in a bad room?? Doesn't make any sense.
You again missed my point, but I'm happy to keep on explaining since other people may also be missing this as well. Headphones will compensate for speakers in a bad room, yes, but only (now pay attention because here is the point!) in regards to FR. Again, you can mix on speakers in a bad sounding room, spot check the FR of your mix on headphones, and then adjust accordingly. Of course, if your headphones have an intrinsically bad FR, as many do, you will adjust incorrectly. Now, another use of headphones in a mixing room can also be to critically listen by spot checking for bad edits and artifacts as you pointed out and yes a speedy, detailed can like the Grado you mentioned, or the Sony SA5K will help you here, but if you tried to adjust your mix on either of these cans, I bet your mix would be hurt by their built-in eq (btw, this is just my term for bad FR) and you would have a dark-sounding mix.
BTW here is a review of the Phonitor from Mix which I found interesting
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post #100 of 298
2/13/09 at 3:23pm
And again, I perfectly understand your point, but you are just wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by bias View Post
You again missed my point, but I'm happy to keep on explaining since other people may also be missing this as well. Headphones will compensate for speakers in a bad room, yes

NO! Headphones can't compensate for a bad room. The room and the distance and stereo spread that is needed to judge a mix, can't be recreated by a headphone, thus you need a good room, which is something headphones can't produce.

, but only (now pay attention because here is the point!) in regards to FR.

So here you are saying, that headphones can compensate for a bad room with their FR?? Furthermore if you think these headphones have a 'flat' frequency response, its not compared to studio monitors. Just for example take a look at this: http://www.genelec.com/documents/datasheets/DS8040a.pdf

Again, you can mix on speakers in a bad sounding room

No, you cannot

, spot check the FR of your mix on headphones

Yes indeed you can, but be sure that you look op 'spot checking' because I'm not quite sure where you got this term from.

, and then adjust accordingly

No they are 2 very different things

. If course, if your headphones have a bad FR, as many do, you will adjust badly. Now, another use of headphones in a mixing room can also be to critically listen by spot checking for bad edits and artifacts as you pointed out and yes a speedy, detailed can like the Grado you mentioned, or the Sony SA5K will help you here, but if you tried to adjust your mix on either of these cans, I bet your mix would be hurt by their built-in eq (btw, this is just my term for bad FR)

A eq is short for equalizer, you are just talking about the headphones characteristics thus 'not equal frequency response'

and you would have a dark-sounding mix.
BTW here is a review of the Phonitor from Mix which I found interesting
Lol check my signature!!
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post #101 of 298
2/13/09 at 3:42pm
OK, I'm done here. In the future please read my postings, take time to digest them and then respond. You're starting to look foolish to everyone that's reading this as you respond to points I make piecemeal without even reading further down the sentence. And if you didn't realize that I linked the article about the Phonitor precisely because you own it and because it is pertinent to our conversation, well, then, I don't have much else to say...
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post #102 of 298
2/13/09 at 4:27pm
Nice arguments, kudos. Maybe you should instead of being so arrogant actually read your stuff before talking about 'making piecemeal' of my arguments, you clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. Stuff like 'your're starting to look foolish to everyone' is for highschool kids, which I highly suspect you are still in, and is only used to avoid a response to the given arguments. And do you really think I didn't already read the reviews before I bought this amp?
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post #103 of 298
2/13/09 at 4:50pm
Hey man, I realize that I have and do very much apologize that I came off as arrogant. I was just getting frustrated. I DO think there is a bit of a language barrier here so it's wrong for me put you down for that. Hey, I don't know a word of Dutch so kudos to you and all the rest of non-native English speakers here at Head-fi for having to work with us Americans. Lord knows, with our schools and hubris it's difficult to imagine the reverse! Again, I do apologize. BTW, have you written a review of the Phonitor here?

-Mike
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post #104 of 298
2/13/09 at 4:54pm
No problem man, and no the Phonitor is still burning in, will write one next week or so.

Cheers
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post #105 of 298
2/13/09 at 11:42pm
Thread Starter 
Good to see that everyone is getting along. Let's not forget that we're here for fun and gaining some knowledge, which is the most rewarding part of the forum...well, and maybe the laughs, too.

Let's start from the perspective that everyone is correct. When I'm talking about a flat FR in headphones or speakers, like the Yamaha NS-10, it's more of a 2D sound image. Visually, it would be flat, sort of like a wall, or sheet of paper. This was the standard in the '70s-'80s. Since then, Dorothy left Kansas and now I think she must be floating like an enigma in deep space. In other words, the headphone companies wanted to satisfy the market/customers and started to colorize the sound and opened up the stereo image. By doing that, they started creating what I call "monster headphones"; headphones that can deal with any situation and possibly suitable for any genre of music. Some examples would be the HD 6XX,the K7XX and the new HD 800. AKG got a big succeeded with the K 701, and let's not forget that AKG is a music company and for the last 30 years, they've produced excellent studio monitor headphones. As I see it the 702s are much more than flat cans in an old school way. They are used as a tool to help you to perfect your mix in a micro-detailed way. It's not a replacement for speakers, but a great reference tool. And they do sound like an acoustically controlled room, which can sometimes sound too dry. I still prefer this to the veiled sound of the Senn. Afterall, it helps me to just focus on the mix. It's true they are more hard to get used to than the old flat cans becuse they have more parameters that need to be taken into consideration. Using these headphones in the studio, you can get better options and creativity for your music and your mix.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

AKG K701 Studio Headphones
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