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difference between a cd and the music ripped lossless

post #1 of 42
12/7/08 at 2:05am
Thread Starter 
With the same headphones, same DAC, same amp, and same interconnects should there be a noticeable difference when the music is played via a computer (ripped lossless) or via a cd in a cd player?
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post #2 of 42
12/7/08 at 4:43am
If you are comparing playing lossless files vs the CD in the same computer CD-ROM, then it's 100% the same.

If it's the difference between a PC transport vs a CD player transport, then things are different and the quality of the output on the CD player and computer come into play and quality depends on them.
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post #3 of 42
12/7/08 at 5:12am
There should not be a difference.
If the CD transport and computer transport both are of comparable quality that is. Bit-perfect, with no sound adjustments turned on.
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post #4 of 42
12/7/08 at 5:51am
Well, technically there is a difference in bits but sonically, no.

For example, whether your ripping does any error correction.
I know for one that one of my CD's contains errors.

Best bet is using EAC with the FLAC option.
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post #5 of 42
12/7/08 at 8:14am
There shouldn't be. Lossless is the same quality as CD because it's uncompressed.
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post #6 of 42
12/7/08 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by apatN View Post
There shouldn't be. Lossless is the same quality as CD because it's uncompressed.
Well, not because its uncompressed. Because lossless is compressed as well.
But unlike lossy audio there are no psychoacoustic processing as part of the compression/encoding. Meaning that the audio data are compressed without loss.
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post #7 of 42
12/7/08 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by apatN View Post
There shouldn't be. Lossless is the same quality as CD because it's uncompressed.
Every time I read any such statement on the net I cringe. CD audio is riddled with errors on the discs. If it wasn't for Solomon-Reed we would have a serious problem. So imagine ripping a CD that has been 'error corrected' by the hardware. Is the rip a true copy of the original data, or a reflection of the eroor corrected data?
But wait, there is more! Not all audio data on a CD is what you imagine it to be. Put for instance a Nora Jones's CD in your PC and then go to File Manager (or Directory Opus in my case). Is that a .dll that I see??? Surely my CD player cannot read driver software? So what is my PC ripping exactly? Individual bits directly off the disc, or information stored in a database of some sort? And what is a video file doing on my Katie Melua CD? My CDP doesn't play it, but my PC does. So is my CD player bit accurate, or my PC 'seeing' data that my CDP can't see?

So this whole bit accurate ripping yarn doesn't quite add up. If what I can play on a CDP off a disc is different in content to what I can play off the same disc on a PC, there is an obvious method in existance to prevent us from ripping a disc bit accurate.
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post #8 of 42
12/7/08 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krmathis View Post
Well, not because its uncompressed. Because lossless is compressed as well.
But unlike lossy audio there are no psychoacoustic processing as part of the compression/encoding. Meaning that the audio data are compressed without loss.
Haha, to make it even more complicated: Depends on what "stage" you look at. If you look at the lossless compressed file that is stored on yoru harddrive then yes, but when it is decoded or gets decoded there is no difference in bits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwinick View Post
With the same headphones, same DAC, same amp, and same interconnects should there be a noticeable difference when the music is played via a computer (ripped lossless) or via a cd in a cd player?
No, there is no difference.
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post #9 of 42
12/7/08 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB1 View Post
Every time I read any such statement on the net I cringe. CD audio is riddled with errors on the discs. If it wasn't for Solomon-Reed we would have a serious problem. So imagine ripping a CD that has been 'error corrected' by the hardware. Is the rip a true copy of the original data, or a reflection of the eroor corrected data?
But wait, there is more! Not all audio data on a CD is what you imagine it to be. Put for instance a Nora Jones's CD in your PC and then go to File Manager (or Directory Opus in my case). Is that a .dll that I see??? Surely my CD player cannot read driver software? So what is my PC ripping exactly? Individual bits directly off the disc, or information stored in a database of some sort? And what is a video file doing on my Katie Melua CD? My CDP doesn't play it, but my PC does. So is my CD player bit accurate, or my PC 'seeing' data that my CDP can't see?

So this whole bit accurate ripping yarn doesn't quite add up. If what I can play on a CDP off a disc is different in content to what I can play off the same disc on a PC, there is an obvious method in existance to prevent us from ripping a disc bit accurate.
Well, what you mention is a mixed mode CD. And since CDP's only play redbook, they do not shop the other data on the disc.
And sorry, "CD audio is riddled with errors on the discs." is simply wrong. What we all talk and complain about are problems about jitter and **** while reading the disc.
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post #10 of 42
12/7/08 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krmathis View Post
Well, not because its uncompressed. Because lossless is compressed as well.
But unlike lossy audio there are no psychoacoustic processing as part of the compression/encoding. Meaning that the audio data are compressed without loss.
Yes, you're right. Had a rough night, eyes still closed etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB1 View Post
Every time I read any such statement on the net I cringe. CD audio is riddled with errors on the discs. If it wasn't for Solomon-Reed we would have a serious problem. So imagine ripping a CD that has been 'error corrected' by the hardware. Is the rip a true copy of the original data, or a reflection of the eroor corrected data?
But wait, there is more! Not all audio data on a CD is what you imagine it to be. Put for instance a Nora Jones's CD in your PC and then go to File Manager (or Directory Opus in my case). Is that a .dll that I see??? Surely my CD player cannot read driver software? So what is my PC ripping exactly? Individual bits directly off the disc, or information stored in a database of some sort? And what is a video file doing on my Katie Melua CD? My CDP doesn't play it, but my PC does. So is my CD player bit accurate, or my PC 'seeing' data that my CDP can't see?

So this whole bit accurate ripping yarn doesn't quite add up. If what I can play on a CDP off a disc is different in content to what I can play off the same disc on a PC, there is an obvious method in existance to prevent us from ripping a disc bit accurate.
You're obsessed, lol.
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post #11 of 42
12/7/08 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smuh View Post
And sorry, "CD audio is riddled with errors on the discs." is simply wrong.
Stop reading and go and work in a CD pressing plant. Or get some of the Philips test dics with the drilled holes and the blank bars. If there is digital data in those holes I shall eat my hats. Those holes are there to demonstrate how even major data errors still result in an nice sounding audio playback stream. A lot of the audio output you hear can easily be pure fiction, derived from lookup tables embedded in a chip on the CD player PCB. CD is laden with errors, scrbbed clean by error correction. To say otherwise is rewriting the facts.
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post #12 of 42
12/7/08 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB1 View Post
Stop reading and go and work in a CD pressing plant. Or get some of the Philips test dics with the drilled holes and the blank bars. If there is digital data in those holes I shall eat my hats. Those holes are there to demonstrate how even major data errors still result in an nice sounding audio playback stream. A lot of the audio output you hear can easily be pure fiction, derived from lookup tables embedded in a chip on the CD player PCB. CD is laden with errors, scrbbed clean by error correction. To say otherwise is rewriting the facts.
I am not saying otherwise, I was just not aware of the fact that we were talking about CD's with more then one hole in it And I am not sure if working in a CD pressing plant would actually help at all...
Everything you said so far get me to to the conclusion that no matter if we play our CD's through a CDP or rip them using a PC we are getting BS anyway.

What would your suggestion for the TO be?
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post #13 of 42
12/7/08 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smuh View Post
I am not saying otherwise, I was just not aware of the fact that we were talking about CD's with more then one hole in it And I am not sure if working in a CD pressing plant would actually help at all...
Everything you said so far get me to to the conclusion that no matter if we play our CD's through a CDP or rip them using a PC we are getting BS anyway.

What would your suggestion for the TO be?
My suggestion is to hang up your thinking cap and just enjoy the music. I spent endless hours trying to make mp3 sound impressive and almost as good as 16 bit audio when played via my DAC? You think many cared? Nope. The iPOD generation is not into bit accuracy. Their quest is more about finding the right earbuds or headphones to get that high-end sound from their portable player. Never mind about buying a bit accurate headphone...
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post #14 of 42
12/7/08 at 10:07am
CD Player
=======
Audio CD -> CD Transport -> S/PDIF Transmitter == S/PDIF ==> DAC

Computer Transport
===============
Lossless File -> Sound Card == S/PDIF ==> DAC

The digital processing is the main factor. For computer audio, you need a decent sound card. A decent external USB sound device such as M-Audio or EMU offers low jitter S/PDIF transmission, given you have a good digital cable.
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post #15 of 42
12/7/08 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by apatN View Post
Yes, you're right. Had a rough night, eyes still closed etc.
He he
No worries, as long as I catch and point you in the right direction.
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