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Wow! Sansa Fuze- color me impressed- Fuze appreciation thread - Page 33

post #481 of 767
I think this argument has come up a few times in this thread already. Nobody wins.
post #482 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody469 View Post
Excuse me but aren't you the guy who doesn't have a Fuze LOD and can't really comment one way or another? Furthermore I have tried "my" Fuze LOD with my M5s AND my 650's and can honestly say you have no idea what you are babbling about. After reading your comments here and elsewhere its clear that my "no disrespect intended" disclaimer was not meant for you.
It was SansaFix who said that the only meausrable differences were very small amounts of THD and signal to noise ratio, and that was after he first said that the signal to the headphone jack was the same as the signal to the line out.

It's right there on the Sansa forum if you want to read it for yourself....

LOD = line out dock.... I have 2, use one every day in my office replacing the old CD player.

Are you selling LODs?

USG
post #483 of 767
I may sell off some of my extensive and somtimes exhaustive array of various audio equipment but my Sansa LOD I will not be parting with.(I actually own equipment and don't just quote from various websites) Besides, it is of none of your concern.
post #484 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by yukihiro View Post
I think this argument has come up a few times in this thread already. Nobody wins.
The two times it has come up in this thread (that I know about) were when people were touting day and night differences between the LOD and headphone jack in order to sell LODs....

SansaFix said the differences were extremely small and although measurable, were most probably inaudible, especially through portable gear....

Unfortunately, that makes me question the DAY and NIGHT differences that some people report, especially since my experience parallels what SansaFix said.

Another irritation is how come Woody needs to be PM'd to explain how to get a LOD? What's wrong with just posting about it? We'd all like to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Junesequa

Hold the phone

theres an LOD for the fuze?
Quote:
woody469

Yes, PM if you'd like to know more.
USG
post #485 of 767

Things that nag me about the Fuze

1) The rear soundstage sucks. It is near non-existant. It is extremely recessed. I'd describe it as 'too deep'.

Remember people, there's 4 elements to soundstage. There's 'left to right' soundstage, the element we often associate with the word 'soundstage', there's 'up and down' soundstage, and there's front and rear soundstage. All are used in production. Rear soundstage is often used in backing vocals and details.

2) Your player crashed / added / deleted songs? Hard reset? no problem. Waiting for 3 minutes while it 'refreshes the media'? Painful.

Otherwise, fantastic SQ for the price. Fix these two things = yay!
post #486 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post
1) The rear soundstage sucks. It is near non-existant. It is extremely recessed. I'd describe it as 'too deep'.

Remember people, there's 4 elements to soundstage. There's 'left to right' soundstage, the element we often associate with the word 'soundstage', there's 'up and down' soundstage, and there's front and rear soundstage. All are used in production. Rear soundstage is often used in backing vocals and details.

2) Your player crashed / added / deleted songs? Hard reset? no problem. Waiting for 3 minutes while it 'refreshes the media'? Painful.

Otherwise, fantastic SQ for the price. Fix these two things = yay!

Hi CK, how are you?

Man, you have good ears. Was that amp'd or unamp'd?....

I've tried this myself but I'd like to know how your ears hear it.

How would you describe the difference between the Fuze to your M^3 as opposed to your HD to the M^3?

USG
post #487 of 767
People, I'm going to strongly recommend that differences of opinions be expressed civilly, and that no one need to argue their point over and over and over. USG, you've made your point regarding specs and snake oil, but allow for others to express their opinion as they choose without being accusatory, and those who disagree with USG need not to resort to personal attacks. This thread is close to being closed. It's your choice, guys, if you want it to remain open or not.
post #488 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
Hi CK, how are you?

Man, you have good ears. Was that amp'd or unamp'd?....
Unamped. I don't have 'golden ears' at all tbh, I have your 'average joe' ears. It's more I know what to look for + experience with a great deal of music.
Example of this recession in the rear soundstage is actually two hip-hop tracks:

Dr. Dre & Snoop Dogg - Deep Cover

Introduction in which he accuses the guy of being '5-0'

This is extremely recessed compared my home rig. This recession happens no matter what earphone so it's the Fuze and not the earphones.

Same applies for J-Live - 'Ooweee'

On the background, there's a very faint background vocals on him going 'ba-da-da' throughout the song

Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
How would you describe the difference between the Fuze to your M^3 as opposed to your HD to the M^3?

USG
Heh, havn't tried it tbh + can't find a mini to 2 RCA cable to test this :P
post #489 of 767
enough already folks no more personal attacks and no more commenting on a item you have sold either in the past or present.
post #490 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post
Unamped. I don't have 'golden ears' at all tbh, I have your 'average joe' ears. It's more I know what to look for + experience with a great deal of music.
Example of this recession in the rear soundstage is actually two hip-hop tracks:

Dr. Dre & Snoop Dogg - Deep Cover

Introduction in which he accuses the guy of being '5-0'

This is extremely recessed compared my home rig. This recession happens no matter what earphone so it's the Fuze and not the earphones.

Same applies for J-Live - 'Ooweee'

On the background, there's a very faint background vocals on him going 'ba-da-da' throughout the song



Heh, havn't tried it tbh + can't find a mini to 2 RCA cable to test this :P

Hi

IC. I have noticed similar things too but haven't been able to put my finger on it.

Was that a flac rip or mp3?

It may be my imagination, but I have been under the impression that the Fuze does better with 320mp3 than flac.

I agree with you, I have never found a portable that sounds as good as my HD does.

I also find that the Fuze doesn't need to be amp'd. We had a power outage the other day and I was listening to the Fuze with my 650s. I tried my Hornet and my Portaphile V2 Maxxed (the better of the two) and found that the sound directly out of the Fuze was crisper and clearer. Curiously, I also found that the volume level I was listening to from the portable amp was lower than 100% from the Fuze, so I disconnected the amp. Within it's power levels, the Fuze was doing fine unamped.

I have another suggestion: If you connect the Fuze to your computer with the supplied USB cable, you should be able to open and play music that's on the Fuze in foobar and hear it through your M^3. You might compare that to the same tracks on your HD.

Mini to RCA, that shouldn't be so hard to find.

USG
post #491 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
I also find that the Fuze doesn't need to be amp'd. We had a power outage the other day and I was listening to the Fuze with my 650s. I tried my Hornet and my Portaphile V2 Maxxed (the better of the two) and found that the sound directly out of the Fuze was crisper and clearer. Curiously, I also found that the volume level I was listening to from the portable amp was lower than 100% from the Fuze, so I disconnected the amp. Within it's power levels, the Fuze was doing fine unamped.



USG


Thanks for giving me a frame of reference for how you hear things. To me, part of head-fi is about figuring out who hears things like I do to help me sift through the many differing opinions. Your above statement proves to me we hear things very differently. What I hear when using my 650 directly from the Fuze is incredibly flat, uninvolving sound lacking dynamics. The Can u drive the senns 650 with a portable amp? thread talks about driving the HD650’s, and I agree with the majority that there is a large difference when driven by a good amp. Personally I prefer my RSA SR-71A.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/c...ml#post5762641


With that said, I am now not surprised if you wouldn’t hear a difference with the equipment previously discussed. This post from the above thread I think is relevant to this thread. But hey, we are both neither right nor wrong, what you hear is what you hear, and your opinions stated here are as valid as any. While I disagree with your opinion and conclusions (as do a whole thread of people), I at least did so in a respectful way; unfortunately you did not. So I will leave it with we hear things differently as do a whole thread of members.



Thanks again for clearing things up; there is no need for further discussion as we hear things differently.
post #492 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by average_joe View Post
Never had any problems with the HP jack.
Something I noticed was when I started using my Neutrik 1/8" plugs with my Clip, the slightly bulkier 1/8" plug would wear the headphone jack of the clip, so when I used the "normal" 1/8, they would be very loose and not as secure as before
post #493 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xan7hos View Post
Something I noticed was when I started using my Neutrik 1/8" plugs with my Clip, the slightly bulkier 1/8" plug would wear the headphone jack of the clip, so when I used the "normal" 1/8, they would be very loose and not as secure as before
Hmmm, interesting, the Neutrik plug is slightly larger. I do notice my Fuze HP out, when used, is very tight. However, my Clip HP out isn't, but it was used, plus, I don't have any Neutrik plugs on mini-mini's or HPs.

Are you using a mini-mini with Neutrik plugs?
post #494 of 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody469 View Post
Thanks for giving me a frame of reference for how you hear things. To me, part of head-fi is about figuring out who hears things like I do to help me sift through the many differing opinions. Your above statement proves to me we hear things very differently. What I hear when using my 650 directly from the Fuze is incredibly flat, uninvolving sound lacking dynamics. The Can u drive the senns 650 with a portable amp? thread talks about driving the HD650’s, and I agree with the majority that there is a large difference when driven by a good amp. Personally I prefer my RSA SR-71A.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/c...ml#post5762641


With that said, I am now not surprised if you wouldn’t hear a difference with the equipment previously discussed. This post from the above thread I think is relevant to this thread. But hey, we are both neither right nor wrong, what you hear is what you hear, and your opinions stated here are as valid as any. While I disagree with your opinion and conclusions (as do a whole thread of people), I at least did so in a respectful way; unfortunately you did not. So I will leave it with we hear things differently as do a whole thread of members.



Thanks again for clearing things up; there is no need for further discussion as we hear things differently.
It all depends on how loud you're listening Woody.

Are you suggesting the amp does something else besides make the sound louder?

I submit to you that for low level listening any big differences you think you might hear between an amped Fuze and unamped Fuze are imaginary....

Of course, if you want to listen louder than the Fuze can go, by all means, use an amp.

That said, I understand that you feel you hear differences.

Thanks for clearing it up.

USG
post #495 of 767

The Nocebo Effect!

First, let me point out that according to the facts presented you are wrong here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
The line out from a Fuze is nothing like the line out from an ipod. An ipod can benefit from a line out, a Fuze does not need it because the chip sends the same signal to both the headphone jack and the line out.
And here:
Quote:
It was SansaFix who said that the only meausrable differences were very small amounts of THD and signal to noise ratio, and that was after he first said that the signal to the headphone jack was the same as the signal to the line out.

It's right there on the Sansa forum if you want to read it for yourself....
Please provide that link

Reviewing this thread, I found this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by average_joe View Post
1) Looking at the data sheet of the AS3525 there are differences between HP out and line out, as the HP out uses pop and click control circuit where the line out does not and is simple (less in the signal path). Also, the line out is designed to drive 10K loads. Amps are usually designed to drive load resistance ranges, so an amp that is good for headphone resistances will not be good for driving line levels and vise versa. I think I would be safe to assume the amps are different for the LO and HPO.

Also, looking at the chip specifications, there is a dedicated LO function by design, but the chip was also designed where all the outputs (there is also a speaker out) go through the same volume control circuit.

2) I asked sansafix what the differences between the HPO and LO are, and here is his answer:
[b]"The HP output is from a different signal path on the PCB vs the Line out. Line out is slightly better performance in specs because there is no circuitry in the path that is required by the FM antenna which is implemented from the HP cable. So separation and SMR is slightly better."[/b
So I decided to do a google search and found the spec sheet. Average_joe should have wrote circuitry (in bold above) instead of function, as the block diagram shows three separate amp sections inside the chip that powers the Fuze. So, while there are differences in the internal wiring between the chip and the outputs, the internal amp sections for line out and HP out are different. Check out page 3 for the overall block diagram, page 129, and page 131. I don’t know how to spell it out any better than that.

Oh, and I found this searching Head-fi:
Quote:
Originally Posted by S J View Post
Sansafix @ Sandisk's forum, who is Sandisk's tech support, has confirmed that it is indeed line-out signal, not headphone-out at 100%
So, if you had your facts right, there are different amp configurations for line out and HP out inside the chip that powers the Fuze. Not to mention the FM circuitry on the HP out that further degrades the sound according to sansafix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
It all depends on how loud you're listening Woody.

Are you suggesting the amp does something else besides make the sound louder?
Of course I hear more than an increase in volume when using an amp! Do you think people use amps only for an increase in volume? I use them because better and more complex circuitry with more power translates to better bass slam, wider, deeper soundstage, and increased micro resolution (AT LOWER NOT HIGHER VOLUMES !!!)

Sounds like you either can not hear or have convinced yourself that there are no differences between the line out and HP out of the Fuze. Or more than likely the griffin dock you have (and you have 2 of them) just doesn't sound any better than the HP out as stated here and here.

Quote:
I submit to you that for low level listening any big differences you think you might hear between an amped Fuze and unamped Fuze are imaginary....
See the nocebo effect.


Quote:
Of course, if you want to listen louder than the Fuze can go, by all means, use an amp.
Where did I state that?

Quote:
That said, I understand that you feel you hear differences.

Thanks for clearing it up.

USG
As I pointed out, it seems there are differences in what we hear, so why do you feel the need to repeat what I have said?

You may be suffering from the opposite of the placebo effect, the Nocebo effect!
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