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Upgrading cables... only half way? Why?

post #1 of 17
9/17/08 at 9:31pm
Thread Starter 
While browsing the headphone FS section (which I do much too often after I sold most of my headphones, yes... the ones in the signature are AFTER I cut down).

Well, I noticed a very disturbing trend where people pay ridiculous amounts of money for really fancy cables (I'm no hypocrite, I recable lots of my stuff as well)... what really throws me off is when people spend hundreds of dollars to get their headphones recabled, then spend hundreds of dollars on fancy interconnects... but they don't recable their DACs or amps and keep the usually crappy stock connectors on them. Now I do understand that some DACs and amps and use no wiring and are all PCB-based, but there are lots that aren't.

So why do people spend so much money to upgrade only half of the signal wiring? Don't you think it's somewhat of a waste to replace only part of the signal wiring?

How many have actually bothered to rewire their equipment before spending hundreds on fancy cables?
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post #2 of 17
9/17/08 at 11:24pm
How much wiring is used in an amp? Maybe 2 feet? I'm not sure, maybe more, but if it makes a difference, I say it's fine. Also think along the lines of people who are capable of wielding a soldering iron. Any improvement is an improvement, even if it only goes halfway.

I could see this going both ways, though. Let's say the wire on the inside of the amp is sub-par (let's hope not, if people can afford big $$ cables, they should be able to buy good amps). That would be like the crud in, crud out philosophy. But let's say that the wire is on par, but not amazing. Would it detract from or negate the rest of the upgrades?

EDIT: I don't own any "fancy" cables, so I don't speak from experience.
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post #3 of 17
9/17/08 at 11:34pm
Quote:
But let's say that the wire is on par, but not amazing. Would it detract from or negate the rest of the upgrades?
Yes, I believe it would. Realistically you hear the worst part of your audio chain. If you had the best of the best powers supplies to a max balanced amp playing from the best marantz player through some dimarzio interconnects or the like, all hooked up to ipod earbuds it wont sound very good IMHO.

Dave
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post #4 of 17
9/18/08 at 12:05am
Thread Starter 
Uhm... I've opened a few different amps before, some in the $1000 range and speaking from experience, the ones that have wire running, it's not great.
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post #5 of 17
9/18/08 at 12:54am
A lot of amps and CD players have ribbon cables connecting boards and steel jumpers all over the PCB.
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post #6 of 17
9/18/08 at 1:25am
It's probably because it's more expensive to rewire an equipment and such service is more limited.
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post #7 of 17
9/18/08 at 1:43am
So are we assuming all internal wiring of amps and sources are bad?
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post #8 of 17
9/18/08 at 2:37am
For me personally, my solutions are either:

A) portable dac/amp combination units. They usually use two circuit boards with an extremely short wire or solder joint between them, and very short signal paths on the PCBs themselves. Thus the only significant length of wire that the signal runs through is the headphone cable.

B) DIY amps that use quality hookup wire (belden silver plated copper comes to mind)

For bigger commercial designs the quality of the internal wiring/components in the signal path/quality of connectors used are all factors I would have to know and take into consideration before purchase.
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post #9 of 17
9/18/08 at 4:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorander View Post
So are we assuming all internal wiring of amps and sources are bad?
No. But it seems that people that strongly believe in cables spend an upwards of $200+.. $500+ on interconnects, and recabling their headphones.
I don't know about commercial amps, but for DIY'ers who care enough to get something other than generic multipurpose hookup wire, 22-24g mil-spec spc wire is pretty common and can be had for a few shiny nickels per foot.
For the more firm believers, heavier spenders, and those who are working on higher-end projects, 99.99% pure stranded silver wire is as high as most people ever go.
Think... that 24g pure silver wire can be had at $1/ft even at retail prices.
An amp may have 2ft of signal wire, or 50ft.

In either case
- one would spend $100 on a 3ft interconnect, but won't spend $2 for the extra 2ft.
- One would spend $100 on a 3ft interconnect, but doesn't care about the other 50ft inside the chassis.

I wonder if people that use connectors like eichmann bullets realize how much actual "contact-points" are made inside an amplifier.
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post #10 of 17
9/18/08 at 4:30am
The vast majority of amps are built on PCBs. Wouldn't that be a bottleneck of sorts? If you wanted to go with silver, etc. audiophile cable, you'd have to either go DIY with an entirely point-to-point setup or rewire a point-to-point amp.
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post #11 of 17
9/18/08 at 4:49am
Internal rewiring doesn't look fancy, it's even not visible and average consumer can't do it on his own. THEREFORE-it does not make any difference! Only visible interconnects make difference!
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post #12 of 17
9/18/08 at 5:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post
Internal rewiring doesn't look fancy, it's even not visible and average consumer can't do it on his own. THEREFORE-it does not make any difference! Only visible interconnects make difference!
Duh! of course!
As sarcastic as the comment was meant to be, it probably has a lot of truth to it.
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post #13 of 17
9/18/08 at 6:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
For me personally, my solutions are either:

A) portable dac/amp combination units. They usually use two circuit boards with an extremely short wire or solder joint between them, and very short signal paths on the PCBs themselves. Thus the only significant length of wire that the signal runs through is the headphone cable.

B) DIY amps that use quality hookup wire (belden silver plated copper comes to mind)

For bigger commercial designs the quality of the internal wiring/components in the signal path/quality of connectors used are all factors I would have to know and take into consideration before purchase.
Unfortunately with solution A, you're limiting yourself quite a bit and have yet to find any DAC+Amp that's anywhere as good as a separate solution.

Solution B - Belden SPC isn't fantastic, but nice. There are lots of good yet inexpensive wire options.


JamesL : I like the Eichmann Bullets, they sound nice compared to most connectors and best of all they don't scratch equipment

QQQ : You're partly right - out of sight, out of mind.
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post #14 of 17
9/18/08 at 7:25am
I have been vaguely contemplating asking what wire is used inside my LD MKV between the board and the good RCA jacks (Van Den Hul). It's probably 6N or 7N copper. If not, I have in mind to upgrade it.
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post #15 of 17
9/18/08 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
While browsing the headphone FS section (which I do much too often after I sold most of my headphones, yes... the ones in the signature are AFTER I cut down).

Well, I noticed a very disturbing trend where people pay ridiculous amounts of money for really fancy cables (I'm no hypocrite, I recable lots of my stuff as well)... what really throws me off is when people spend hundreds of dollars to get their headphones recabled, then spend hundreds of dollars on fancy interconnects... but they don't recable their DACs or amps and keep the usually crappy stock connectors on them. Now I do understand that some DACs and amps and use no wiring and are all PCB-based, but there are lots that aren't.

So why do people spend so much money to upgrade only half of the signal wiring? Don't you think it's somewhat of a waste to replace only part of the signal wiring?

How many have actually bothered to rewire their equipment before spending hundreds on fancy cables?
On my headphone system I have done nothing (except buy a LOD to RCA cable from ALO). The cost of the portable phone system (I-pod, Mapletree, RS-1) does not justify spending dollars in up-grading wire. If I was to spend any money here it would be on better components.

In my home system I have added dedicated lines, replaced the wire in the Phono and pre-amp, have bought fancy interconnects, speaker cables and power cables. I have not replaced the wire in the power amps and the CD player. The power amps will be done shortly in the future, the CD manufacturer offers an up-graded unit with better wire and PCB boards, etc, but at about 75% extra cost.

Most people do not look at this hobby as a whole package. We want instant gradification with the least effort.

Some people listen with their eyes, some listen with their ears.

No matter how I run my "fancy" cables, they are always out of sight behind the components, maybe some day I will buy longer ones so I can snake them infront of the components so other people will be aughed. (sarcastic)
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