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post #46 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerbie View Post
I'm not saying I think a thin cable is wrong. Merely that diameter ranges should be measurable properties for given performance criteria. For short audio line-level ICs with some kind of twisst or braids, a hair's width could be big enough, for all I know.

My primary points were that controlling for, "good enough," should be important (a DAC with a crap output stage that is sensitive to cable loads might make it seem like cables are able to make a difference, where one properly implemented sounds the same with any cable that can move electrons), and also to put in a devil's advocate word for the slim possibility of placebo affect against hearing differences in cables, should such a difference exist independent of deficiencies at the ends of the cable.
My post was just to show those cables. I saw them at one of the meets. I also saw cables made of two lengths of very thin single strand silver wire wrapped alternately around a flat 2" piece of paper. They didn't sound so shabby either....

No reason, btw, why placebo wouldn't work both ways....

USG

post #47 of 61
On the non-power, non-line side: headphone drivers represent fairly complex loads, and it would not surprise me one bit if some headphones are tonally balanced by the effective impedance of the cable. Adding resistors can change the response of many drivers dramatically. Why not on a lesser scale with skinny wires? As such, though, the expectation of being better due to cost would affect whether the opinion is positive or negative, if a difference in sound is accepted (even if it really sounded better before, you'd think it is better now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnmnkh
Or even better, as we all probably aware, transducers are the one make the most different. Why not invest on better speakers and headphones?
But, what if there isn't very far to go? Or nowhere? If you find the K701, FI, to be superior to all of the more expensive items, where do you have left to run? OK, you get the best DAC. OK, you go balanced. OK, you get the best amp. There must be more, right? So then, you get that placebo effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA
Just listen to gear. You will have opinions change on things.
But, is there data to support those opinions? Are there at least reasonable hypotheses to support the opinions? Just listening means trusting one's senses completely. I know that my senses "lie" to me all of the time. They tell me there's a raccoon crouching there--just my sneakers in the dark. They tell me there's a ticking noise--that's just manifesting something I'm thinking about (if I work it just right, I can listen to a song as though it's coming to my hears, but it's all illusionary...rare, and hard to do, but really cool when it happens). There's no way I can just trust my hearing, if I think I hear a difference after changing a component.
post #48 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
But, what if there isn't very far to go? Or nowhere? If you find the K701, FI, to be superior to all of the more expensive items, where do you have left to run? OK, you get the best DAC. OK, you go balanced. OK, you get the best amp. There must be more, right? So then, you get that placebo effect.
If you are nowhere to go, then you are done with equipments. Simple as really. If you think there is no where to go other than investing these silly cables, then you are done. You did your best, and you got the best you have desired.

Then, it would be time to buy some CDs, LDs, and good lossless online music files to make your stuffs sing. Sometimes I am surprised to see some people completely forget what's all of sound equipments are for: listening to good music.

There are many good recordings which are expensive and hard to find, why not invest to get these good songs?

I read a commercial about Audioquest cables, which cost, like 10000$+ for mere a few feet. Imagine you buy 10000$+ worth of CDs, LDs and lossless source. I am pretty sure you may not hear all of them before you die.

Or, you can use such surplus money for other matters in your life. How about a new car? saving money for house? insurance?

There are many things can be invested. The point is, just do not waste money for useless cables. Why do you spend money for the thing which has zero improvement on your sound system, only fooling you via placebo effect?





By the way, about power cables. Even though you can do anything inside of your house, you won't do much about other 500miles of cheap aluminum cables from a power plant.

Said, you will deal with the power company about the matter.....

This this below. It has an example to how to get special copper cables to the plant, special transformer with special audiophile cooling oil, and other wonderful stuffs.
I Am As Mad As Hell - Find Out Why
post #49 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post

By the way, about power cables. Even though you can do anything inside of your house, you won't do much about other 500miles of cheap aluminum cables from a power plant.

Said, you will deal with the power company about the matter.....

This this below. It has an example to how to get special copper cables to the plant, special transformer with special audiophile cooling oil, and other wonderful stuffs.
I Am As Mad As Hell - Find Out Why
Exactly.
It's absolute madness... A child could understand this.
It's not surprising to me though, there are people who also believe in acupuncture and psychics...
post #50 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapwing View Post
Exactly.
It's absolute madness... A child could understand this.
It's not surprising to me though, there are people who also believe in acupuncture and psychics...
Don't let Miss Cleo make you think there is no truth in psychic power.

I don't know anything about power cables as I have not tried it or plan to for that matter but I have tried the recabling of my Senn HD 25-1 and there is a substantial difference. Science cannot explain everything. If it works for me cool.... if not it may just not be my thing.
post #51 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.khali View Post
Science cannot explain everything.
Science CAN explain electrodynamics very very well. The rules are in fact quite simple and are taught to Sophomore year physics undergrads. Revert all doubts to Maxwell, Ohm, Coulomb, and Lorentz.
post #52 of 61
Well as you can tell I know little about the science of electrodynamics. Does science give any weight to silver or copper cables over steel or am I just experiencing a placebo effect in your humble opinion?
post #53 of 61
Science was never the reason I listened to music. Science was never the reason I bought cables. Growing up in a audio store as a gopher when I was a kid with a lot of natural curiosity. I have found that cables make a difference to me. Some are always looking for answers why A+B is false or maybe true. Not taking a hobby too serious ends up having more fun. That is where I am at.
post #54 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
If you are nowhere to go, then you are done with equipments. Simple as really. If you think there is no where to go other than investing these silly cables, then you are done. You did your best, and you got the best you have desired.
What if you need to strive for perfection, such that there must always be greener grass on the other side, no matter the vibrance of the green beneath your feet? In large part, I think that may be what goes on.

mr.khali: there's a point where known data about something else can be combined with anecdotal accounts, and brought to a hypothesis. We don't have much in the way of willing recablers with sufficient equipment to do before/after response tests on headphones to be recabled. Some data can be seen in the second OP link, under, "Cable Resistance Too High?" All the necessary physics is boiled down to that graph, for a normal speaker. Either that or one of the others deals with longer-but-thinner cable runs to drivers, as well (I made sure to read them when I found the thread, but now I'm going to play lazy). Headphone recabling changing the sound for certain headphones looks quite plausible, to me.

P.S. http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm ("Difficult Loads")
post #55 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post
Not taking a hobby too serious ends up having more fun. That is where I am at.
Not taking it seriously? You call spending thousands of dollars on power cables not taking your hobby seriously? Where you're at is thousands of dollars poorer.

I don't think you even need science to see why it dosnt make sense...

Here's an ASCII picture to help:

-----------crappy power lines from powerstation/house------------|==Uber expensive silver power cables==

Notice the the crappy power lines are denoted as a thin --- and the uber expensive silver power cables are denoted with a thicker ==...
How do you get "better" current on your end when there's a hundred miles of sub-audio grade cable leading from the power station?
post #56 of 61
Lapwing, if Big Poppa wants to spend his money on power cables let him be. No need to highbrow the man to death. We are here to agree to disagree but your posts are very pointed.
post #57 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.khali View Post
Lapwing, if Big Poppa wants to spend his money on power cables let him be. No need to highbrow the man to death. We are here to agree to disagree but your posts are very pointed.
I really don't mean to single any particular person out.
My comments are more pointed at the general populous who disregard logic and science for whimsical subjectivity. And it has frustrated me on a personal level that so much money is spent toward this end. But alas, you are right in that I must agree to disagree. No hard feelings intended
post #58 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.khali View Post
Well as you can tell I know little about the science of electrodynamics. Does science give any weight to silver or copper cables over steel or am I just experiencing a placebo effect in your humble opinion?
Yes, absolutely, silver and copper conductors have higher conductivity than aluminum or steel. They are more efficient at transferring current, but this does NOT equate to cleaner, better sound on the front end. As long as your amplifier is supplied a stable current of it's recommend power rating it could care less which cable is feeding it that current.

So in the case of power cables, yes I would humbly say it's entirely a placebo effect. However, when it comes to cables which actually transfer audio signals (headphone lines and RCAs) there maybe some validity towards using higher quality conductors. Different conductors will transfer current of different frequencies in a non-linear way. This could potentially mean that one cable is better at transferring lower frequencies than higher frequencies. However I'd only be satisfied with this argument if it could be scientifically shown that the "color" of such a conductor difference was audibly noticeable (And I doubt this... but whos knows...)
post #59 of 61
Lapwing, is it possible that there is a measurable difference yet at the current time no way to do so at the current time? If you believe, which i doubt you do, that there is no progress to be made as far at measuring sound goes, your argument is reasonable. If you don't, rigorous listening tests are the only way to go about things like this.
post #60 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by malldian View Post
Lapwing, is it possible that there is a measurable difference yet at the current time no way to do so at the current time? If you believe, which i doubt you do, that there is no progress to be made as far at measuring sound goes, your argument is reasonable. If you don't, rigorous listening tests are the only way to go about things like this.
I do believe we can precisely test for sound quality signatures through an analytic approach. I also believe that "sound quality" is a relative term which means different things for different people. Some people like their sound to be colored in a certain way, while others would like their sound to be exactly modeled against the reference recording.

Testing for precise audio reproduction is easy at the analog output level of the amp. You perform a Pearson's chi-squared test with the reference frequency distribution model against the output frequency distribution model. This is of course dependent of the accuracy of your measuring device but there are very proven ways to accommodate for this. In fact this precision is absolutely necessary in the ultra-sensitive measuring devices of super colliders. It can be done the question is who has the balls to actually do it.

Testing for precise audio reproduction after it's left a speaker is a lot more difficult since you have to account for the quality of a microphone which must act as a medium for the sound. Though, I dont think there is any question as to whether or not speakers themselves have different sounds, that's much more apparent.

On the other hand we have people who enjoy "colored" sound on the output, this is much more subjective to measure. But ask yourself, do you really want your cables to color your music? Why have the cables color your music statically when you can use an equalizer and tweak your sound exactly how you like it?

The above examples are for cables which act as transfer conductors for the actual audio signal. Testing the difference in power cables? That's almost trivially simple as there's only a very small amount of qualities to test for. One being the stability of the current over time, another being the linearity of the alternating phase shift of the AC, both of these can be easily compared using an ammeter and oscilloscope.
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