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post #16 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
The name should not indicate that it's just discussion of testing procedure. It has to be the yang to the cable forum's definition's ying, or we will define certain types of discussion as being out of place anywhere at HeadFi.

I would suggest the most open and all encompassing definition possible... one that leaves it open for subjectivists to post to our forum too. After all, the objectivists welcome different points of view. We aren't the ones trying to isolate ourselves from dissent. Everyone should be on equal ground so the arguments rise and fall on their own merits.

Here's my suggestion...

"OBJECTIVE AUDIO: Free and open discussion of audio issues, both rational and purely subjective, from an objective point of view."

See ya
Steve
The bolded elements in your rationale and forum description both indicate an adversarial bias. Remember, we're trying to keep it non-inflammatory. I don't think many of us want the new forum to be full of threads doing nothing but making fun of what happens in the cable forum, but I get the impression (I admit I could be wrong) that this might be your agenda.
post #17 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
By the way, Upstateguy... I know you mean well, but spawning multiple threads on this is making it difficult to follow the discussions. Threads never follow the title exactly. They wander a little bit as they go. It's gotten to the point now where there are four or five threads on this topic, all discussing the same sorts of things. I'd prefer it if we just let it play out in the threads we have, rather than spawn more, if you don't mind.

Thanks
Steve
The three spinoff threads have been staying on topic. I think it's working great.
post #18 of 52
No, my point is that it shouldn't be against the rules to post a purely subjective observation to an objective forum. A subjective impression... "it sounds muffled to me." can lead to a hypothesis... "the frequency response isn't flat." which can be tested. If we make subjective observation off limits, we gut the first step in the process of observing, questioning, testing and analysis.

There is absolutely no bias to describing an observation as purely subjective. The difference between the other forum and the new one is that in the other forum, it stops at observation. In the new forum, that's the beginning of the discussion.

(I'm frustrated at having to discuss the same thing in two threads here. I'm seriously considering skipping these numbered objective threads and just participating in the main thread.)

See ya
Steve
post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidbasement View Post
The three spinoff threads have been staying on topic. I think it's working great.
We have three separate threads discussing the definition of the new forum.

See ya
Steve
post #20 of 52
^ This one is about titles, and that's what we've been discussing. The equipment specification thread has stayed on that topic, and the definition thread, as far as I can tell, was mostly started to shed the off-topic and inflammatory posts from the first thread. It is quite well organized.
post #21 of 52
I like Science & Sound or the Science of Audio or something like that. I would want the forum to include interesting studies and not be merely a "Skeptics Playground"
post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXII View Post
I don't think "empiricist" is a loaded term unlike the other 2. I second "empirical listening forum" or something like that.
"But I'm empirical! I empirically evaluate systems with my own ears! How is that not empirical?"
post #23 of 52
I agree that Science of Sound is a pleasant sounding title with a rather positive tone, and one that would be fairly wide open in terms of the range topics that could fall within it's reach.

The problem that I'd foresee with words such as "Objectivist" or "Skeptics" in the forum name is that such words seem to beg for confrontation, and this (in part, anyway), is what we're trying to avoid. People shouldn't feel the need to "declare" whether they're objectivists or subjectivists (such as Republican or Democrat); instead, they should always feel free to enter discussions in any forum where they find interesting threads that they want to participate in, so long as they agree to operate within the parameters of that forum.

The idea behind the new forum is to separate topics of discussion, not to separate people. In fact, the new forum should actually help considerably in terms of reducing the frustration felt by people on all sides of the objectivist/subjectivist 'argument' in the sense that appropriate discussions will now be occurring in appropriate threads/forums without nearly as much thread crapping. As such, discussions in all of our forums should become more robust (and dare I say, healthy) as a result.
post #24 of 52
I think I'm getting a handle on this now. We're adding a forum for discussion of scientific testing and the other forums are all staying the same. We aren't trying to separate areas of disagreement.

I guess I'll bow out of making suggestions then, because I'll probably just be continuing in the old forums. I'm an audio nut, not a scientist. I'll let those who have an interest in the new topic define it.

See ya
Steve
post #25 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I think I'm getting a handle on this now. We're adding a forum for discussion of scientific testing and the other forums are all staying the same. We aren't trying to separate areas of disagreement.
I wouldn't say it is so black and white. I believe what we are trying to do is provide an outlet to dispute the claims of say the quantum chip, or cables, or the stones etc., while avoiding the "us vs. them" stigma that is prevalent in many of the threads which are initially open to discussing the sonic benefits of certain items. Essentially we are attempting to have a non-mudslinging forum where anyone and everyone ought to feel comfortable posting in without fear of being labeled. This goes for an "objectivist or subjectivist." The idea though is that DBT discussions are fair game here. However, if people want to be "objectivists" through and through, the idea behind a DBT should be discussed as well if one is holding that unless one "passes" a DBT successfully, a product has no merit. So ultimately there will be discussions on scientific testing which will be fun for a lot of people. There are a lot of engineers on this board and scientists who are itching to have an outlet. At the same time there are quite a few folks who are not familiar with the science behind audio and would love to learn more. If someone claims they treated 1000 CDs with stickers that "magically" changed the sound, and the cost is $40/10 discs, some might want to figure out what they are getting for 4k to treat their cds. Discussing quantum theory will occur no doubt, and then ultimately DBTs I would presume. At the end of the day, it may well be a nice bank of knowledge for the forum if the name calling can be held back.
post #26 of 52
The most common complaint about the current forum seems to be that discussions of cables and comparisons are knocked off track by people who say there is no difference, which leads to debate instead of a discussion.

What seems best to me is to have a "Cables/Tweaks/Etc. Listening Impressions Forum." If people want to ask for a recommendation, post a review, compare products, they can do it there.

The other forum should be the "Cables/Tweaks/Etc. Discussion Forum." That's where you would post a "do cables make any difference?" type of thread.

I don't think those would unfairly label either side and avoids judgment of either.
post #27 of 52
Evidential Science of Sound
Logical Science of Sound
Sound Science
post #28 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
The most common complaint about the current forum seems to be that discussions of cables and comparisons are knocked off track by people who say there is no difference, which leads to debate instead of a discussion.

What seems best to me is to have a "Cables/Tweaks/Etc. Listening Impressions Forum." If people want to ask for a recommendation, post a review, compare products, they can do it there.

The other forum should be the "Cables/Tweaks/Etc. Discussion Forum." That's where you would post a "do cables make any difference?" type of thread.

I don't think those would unfairly label either side and avoids judgment of either.
I think this is a good suggestion, my only concern is this:

are "objectivists" declaring that amps are different, DAP's, DAC's etc? If so, and the DBT type of discussion will only pertain to Cables, Tweaks etc...then your idea is excellent and poses no threat to anyone nor any condescension. However, if folks want to debate amps, cd players etc., we'll have to entitle it something else since we already have a source forum, amp forum etc, and I don't think we need to start splitting up "impressions and discussions" for every item that folks believe may or may not make a difference in playback.
post #29 of 52
Thread Starter 
Here is a nice mild name:

Alternative Audio: Discuss tests, measurements and gear


USG
post #30 of 52
An alternative to what exactly...
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