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SACD with especially bad CD layer?

post #1 of 37
8/10/08 at 3:09pm
Thread Starter 
It seems that the general consensus (if there were such a thing) is that with the same mastering, SACD layer is not vastly superior (if at all) to the CD layer.

I have not heard (at least knowingly) an SACD until today when I was auditioning some players today. The sales guy pulled out an SACD and played the SACD on a Marantz SA7001 and play the CD layer on a Marantz CD6002.

I wasn't expecting to hear much difference. But the CD6002 playing the CD layer is considerably muddier. I heard some difference between the mentioned the two players when playing redbook CD, but not that much difference. My wife who isn't into audio heard a difference too, so it isn't something subtle.

I wonder, if it is a dirty trick pulled by the sales guys And is there actually SACD recording with the CD layer being made worse on purpose? Whatever it is, it made my wife agree getting the SA7001 that cost more than twice of the CD6002.
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post #2 of 37
8/10/08 at 3:33pm
Which SACD was it?
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post #3 of 37
8/10/08 at 3:44pm
Thread Starter 
I don't remember. It is a female singer (an Asian girl if I'm not mistaken) that goes by a single name. The fourth track is "... may long to be, close to you..." originally by The Carpenters. The third track seems to be "Fly me to the moon". Most if not all of the songs seems to be classic like those. I think the cover is greenish monochrome picture of the singer.
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post #4 of 37
8/10/08 at 4:18pm
I'm not sure what the problem here is.

You played two different things on two different players. If you'd played the same thing on both players and heard a difference, or played both layers on one player and heard a difference, we'd have something.
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post #5 of 37
8/10/08 at 4:19pm
Susan Wong - Close To You? Perhaps a hybrid SACD in disguise?

Alas, I don't think there's much of a prayer of finding online discussions about the differences between the CD and the SACD layer unless a physical copy of the SACD is obtained. But I would definitely be concerned. You might want to consider buying an SACD of music you know and confirming that both layers are equal through an analog rip to use as a stable comparison disc, if you're serious about buying that player.
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post #6 of 37
8/10/08 at 4:39pm
I would find my own SACD reference disk, check the instructions for the 7001, and try to play both layers on the 7001.
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post #7 of 37
8/10/08 at 4:40pm
Thread Starter 
Publius,

Yes, that's the album!

I already got the SACD player, though not quite for the SACD capability. With red book CD I find that it sounds more "realistic" compared to it's lesser brethren. I A/Bed both players with my a few of my own red book CD that I am familiar with, my wife couldn't hear much of a difference. That's somewhat an indication that the difference isn't that much. And I detected none of the muddiness with my red book CDs. And in my book if non audiophile can hear a difference, it proves that I am sane.

Just wondering out loud, since I already got the player. I guess it's time to try out some SACD now.
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post #8 of 37
8/10/08 at 4:45pm
Thread Starter 
Just for clarification, I am not saying or asking that SACD is no good or no better than red book CD. I'm just wondering if it is the sales guy's trick that somehow he discovered that there are SACD with especially bad CD layer, and use it to convince customers into buying SACD players instead of a plain and cheap CD player.
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post #9 of 37
8/10/08 at 6:10pm
It is very likely that the redbook layer was hobbled.

The best way to compare layers is to use a DSD mastered record. The odds there are better that the layers match than with an analogue master. If you want to buy one SACD just for testing purposes, I'd recommend Jaarvi's Stravinsky chamber works on Pentatone. It was recommended to me in rec.arts.music as a test disk, and it has the best sound of any recording I've ever heard- both redbook and SACD layers.

See ya
Steve
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post #10 of 37
8/10/08 at 6:12pm
It's possible that the dealer is (fradulently/knowingly) using a broken CD layer to sell overpriced kit, but it's more likely that he's deluding himself. Ie, that particular SACD must be particularly more "resolving" or "revealing" than other SACDs in his collection, because that is in his mind the most logical reason for it sounding so much better than the CD layer.
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post #11 of 37
8/11/08 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Publius View Post
Susan Wong - Close To You? Perhaps a hybrid SACD in disguise?
There's no disguising any of her SACDs....




CD playback performance varies between models. Perhaps the lesser Marantz was just one of those that doesn't have good CD playback performance.
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post #12 of 37
8/11/08 at 3:34pm
I find that SACD playback is always better than CD, a pretty cheap SACD will easily outperform an expensive redbook CD.
Of course, if the source material is poor then both layers will be poor, can't get silk from a sows ear!

BT
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post #13 of 37
8/11/08 at 6:45pm
Darn the SACD of Close to you is hard to find online for a decent price.
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post #14 of 37
8/12/08 at 1:57pm
The difference in sound quality between a redbook CD and an SACD has more to do with the mixing and mastering than it does the format itself. Assuming that the redbook layer isn't hobbled in some way, an SACD hybrid will sound just as good on a CD player as it does on an SACD player. Unfortunately, in legacy titles mastered from analogue sources, the redbook layer and SACD layer are not always identical.

See ya
Steve
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post #15 of 37
8/12/08 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navyblue View Post
...my wife couldn't hear much of a difference. That's somewhat an indication that the difference isn't that much.
Don't use that as an indicator, lol...my wife can't tell differences either, but mostly because she just doesn't care. Her standard response to any "listen to this!" tests is :shrug: ..."whatever". As soon as I start saying things like "imaging", "soundstage", or "transient response", she goes all glassy-eyed...
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