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The Objectivist Audio Forum - Page 2

post #16 of 180
I'm sorry mbriant, but you've totally missed the source of the problem with these troublesome threads. It has nothing to do with either opinion. It has nothing to do with science. It has nothing to do with disagreement. It's all about respect.

Some people can't accept disagreement on certain issues without resorting to name calling and insults. If the moderators simply dealt with the five or six posters who insist on dragging every thread they don't agree with down in flames, there wouldn't be any problem with people respectfully disagreeing. The big problem for you is, these people are not objectivists. They're the teenage kids who want to "win" the argument at all costs without having to support their points with facts. Instead of backing up what they say, they resort to insults and more insults. By the time the moderators step in, they've whipped everything up into a froth and all that can be done is to lock the thread.

Adults need to be able to accept respectful dissenting opinion. If they can't, then they shouldn't be participating in a discussion forum. They should post rants to a blog with comments turned off. All opinions are not created equal. Some opinions can be backed up with supporting arguments, some can't. Let them rise and fall on their own merits.

I'm happy to discuss placebo in the objectivist forum. But I don't discuss placebo very much. Usually I'm discussing measurable specs and audibility thresholds, which under any definition of the group falls in the main forum. I don't think that I will be spending very much time with serious discussion in the new forum, and with that flippant description of the forum in the menu, I doubt that anyone else will. You're setting up a "ghost town" forum that will only attract pointless posts. Nothing will change except that you now will have flaming going on in two forums, not just one.

I'm guessing that the reason that it's taken so long for the forum to be opened is that you are waiting for a problem thread to move there to inaugurate it. It's hard to find a clear example of the fault of the objectivist posters, isn't it?

See ya
Steve
post #17 of 180
Quote:
In a reasonable forum, this is the way things would always be. People who seek the truth and desire free inquiry should be free to do so; people who choose to remain in the dark ages and don't want their bubbles burst should be segregated from the main populace.
In a reasonable forum, all members would be reasonable and respectful of other's rights to have a different belief and not think it's OK to continuously disrupt and derail other's discussions by thread-crapping their threads with the same "prove it or shut up" agenda.

Let's face it, that agenda consists of primarily one repetitive theme .... "If it can't be scientifically proven by some piece of existing testing equipment, it can't possibly be true" which some objectivists unfortunately apparently thrive on introducing into ANY discussion they wish. A theme I might add, that could easily be presented once, in one single sticky thread, let alone dedicated forum.

AFAIK, the objectivist's justification for continuously thread-crapping and derailing subjectivist's threads, is that a) subjectivists are always wrong because they can't back up their comments, personal observations, preferences, and beliefs with scientific explanations, and the big one b) subjective equipment discussion causes naive people to waste their money and these people need to be protected. Now, instead of one side's threads being ruined by objectivist dogged thread derailing, beginner and long term audiophiles can still hear the objectivist's argument ( and be saved if they want to) by reading objectivist's threads in the objectivist's forum, leaving the regular, common equipment discussions free to occur without threat of being derailed and turned into the same old argument.

Remember, when a group of like-minded individuals are discussing differences in cables that they perceive, in a thread titled "Which of these 3 cables sound's better to you?" someone butting in with the old "prove it or shut up" agenda is off-topic and thread crapping. Butting in and saying "there cannot possibly be any difference" is off topic and thread crapping. Unfortunately, a small group of objectivists can't seem to grasp this reality.
post #18 of 180
Quote:
Adults need to be able to accept respectful dissenting opinion.
Adults also need to learn when dissenting opinion, respectful or otherwise, is not appropriate. Adults also need to be respectful of other people's discussions ... not derail them ... thread-crap them ... and turn them from a discussion about equipment between like-minded individuals into an subjective vs objective argument whenever they feel like it.

Quote:
I'm guessing that the reason that it's taken so long for the forum to be opened is that you are waiting for a problem thread
Bad guess. The objectivist's forum is not for problem threads. It's to prevent problem threads. It's taken so long for the same reason everything takes so long ... lots to be done and limited time to do it in.

Quote:
Some people can't accept disagreement on certain issues without resorting to name calling and insults. If the moderators simply dealt with the five or six posters who insist on dragging every thread they don't agree with down in flames, there wouldn't be any problem with people respectfully disagreeing. The big problem for you is, these people are not objectivists. They're the teenage kids who want to "win" the argument at all costs without having to support their points with facts. Instead of backing up what they say, they resort to insults and more insults. By the time the moderators step in, they've whipped everything up into a froth and all that can be done is to lock the thread.
That's your opinion, based on the reaction you yourself have personally received because of your dogged "set the world straight" campaign. You've completely missed the fact that many people are simply fed up and frustrated with their threads being constantly derailed and ruined by objectivists butting in with their demands to "back up what they say", and that because of this recent history of constant thread crapping by a certain group of objectivists, the second they showed up, yet again, with the same lines and demands for proof, the anger and frustration was already there. It's like someone taunting and annoying a dog for weeks on end, then saying "Why did he bite me, I was only going to pet him this time?"

Rarely, if ever, have I seen a subjectivist post where off topic and out of the blue, a provoking or insulting comment was made towards objectivists. I can't say the same for the opposite. You've also completely missed the fact that immediately, every time an objectivists butts into a thread, by the very nature of their agenda and argument, they're at best insinuating every subjectivist is misinformed and at worst, an idiot or a liar. That never sets the mood for an emotion-free discussion. You've mentioned subjectivists resorting to name calling, yet made no mention of the jabs, barbs, rude, snide, insulting comments, cracks, and exaggerated examples some objectivists make on a regular basis. Again, I am an objectivist myself, yet embarrassingly and sadly, from my perspective, it's mostly objectivists who do the thread crapping, snickering, snide comments, and insulting ... not subjectivists. For the most part, they want to be left in peace to discuss the things they want to discuss .... not be forced to stop their discussion to justify themselves or to provide scientific proof to you or anyone else.
post #19 of 180
Think for a sec... what if I posted a thread that said this in the main forum...

"It's my subjective observation that all cables sound the same. And I have anecdotal experience indicating to me that stereo salesmen use high end cables to increase the profit margin and commission on their sales."

...would that be all right to post in the subjective forum?

If someone disagreed with me, saying that they have cables that do sound different and stereo salesmen only have our best interests at heart, would I be allowed to follow that up with...

"I believe this so strongly, I consider any disagreement to be thread crapping. I don't have to back up what I say with supporting evidence. This is my opinion. Don't derail my thread by disagreeing."

That would be pretty unreasonable to take that sort of attitude in a discussion forum, wouldn't it?

See ya
Steve
post #20 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbriant View Post
Adults also need to learn when dissenting opinion, respectful or otherwise, is not appropriate.
That would be a subjective judgement call, wouldn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbriant View Post
You've completely missed the fact that immediately, every time an objectivists butts into a thread, by the very nature of their agenda and argument, they're at best insinuating every subjectivist is misinformed and at worst, an idiot or a liar.
You are talking about three completely different things there... misinformed people, idiots and liars.

There is nothing wrong with being misinformed. Mark Twain wrote, "We are all ignorant, just on different subjects." Sharing information and correcting misinformation is a noble task. The whole purpose we come to this forum is to find information to replace our own particular misinformation or lack of information.

Idiots are incapable of understanding the information presented to them. That isn't their fault, unless they choose to be idiots, which leads to the next category...

Lying involves *willful* misinformation. The only way to get away with that is to state misinformation as the truth, then squelch all dissenting opinions. No one wants to do that.

See ya
Steve
post #21 of 180
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbriant View Post

Let's face it, that agenda consists of primarily one repetitive theme .... "If it can't be scientifically proven by some piece of existing testing equipment, it can't possibly be true" which some objectivists unfortunately apparently thrive on introducing into ANY discussion they wish. .

Very well said and hard to argue with!!!

There must be scads of things in electronics that are true but can't be proven by testing or measured by equipment.....

USG
post #22 of 180
Quote:
Think for a sec... what if I posted a thread that said this in the main forum...

"It's my subjective observation that all cables sound the same. And I have anecdotal experience indicating to me that stereo salesmen use high end cables to increase the profit margin and commission on their sales."

...would that be all right to post in the subjective forum? <The first sentence wouldn't be a problem as long as it directly pertained to the thread topic and was left at that... ie: Do you hear a difference between audio cables?" I don't see the second line regarding salesmen and profit margins being a problem either. In fact I seem to recall a discussion or two pertaining to that sort of thing in the past. But then of course, your example is an intentional attempt to challenge. The hi-jacked, derailed threads I've been talking about weren't created to bait or antagonize anyone. They were more along the lines of "I enjoyed the sound of the xyz cable, although found it a little harsh sounding" followed by "prove it" or snide, unnecessary, smart-ass comments like this: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4487475-post21.html

If someone disagreed with me, saying that they have cables that do sound different and stereo salesmen only have our best interests at heart, would I be allowed to follow that up with...

"I believe this so strongly, I consider any disagreement to be thread crapping. I don't have to back up what I say with supporting evidence. This is my opinion. Don't derail my thread by disagreeing."

That would be pretty unreasonable to take that sort of attitude in a discussion forum, wouldn't it?
As an isolated, hypothetical, extreme, selective example, yes. However, we're talking about a massive, possibly majority number of audiophiles and audio enthusiasts who do hear differences in cables, sources, etc., continuously having the fun sucked out of their hobby and their equipment discussions by a small group of objectivists with an agenda. Again, the objective/subjective debate has gone on forever and likely will continue to go on forever. We know from 7 years of experience at head-fi, and I know from 16 years of publishing an objectivist audio magazine, that the argument just goes around in circles, never ends, nobody wins, and the end result is anger, frustration, and derailed threads that were not started to be a subj/obj debate. There's always going to be strong opinions and faith in one's own perception in this hobby, it's not going away, and after much thought, the best we could come up with to stop one side for ruining it for the others, is to separate the two groups. We've tried the other way and it doesn't work.

We're trying to compromise here, and this is the solution we've come up with. It's not perfect, and nothing we could ever do would make everyone happy. So we're trying to be fair to everyone ... not just those who are "subjectively" absolutely convinced they are right.
post #23 of 180
just another goofball thing that has ****ed headfi into a C- forum
post #24 of 180
Quote:
just another goofball thing that has ****ed headfi into a C- forum
Really? I don't know what a C-forum is, but it must be a good thing because you're still here. Is that a subjective or objective observation on your part?
post #25 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
[B][COLOR="blue
It seems to me that the scientific approach of accurate measurement and testing should easily override hearsay, opinion and the recollections of dim auditory memory.

USG
Are you gonna use "already burned-in" test equipment?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Is it not possible to hook up a Cap. meter to a component and measure the before and after results of any given frequency?...maybe even have an external switch and test leads to measure without actually removing the component from the amp/device/circuit.
Same for cables.
post #26 of 180
You might want to quote my post with the responses attached to it. Read down for a few posts. Some folks here have more of a sense of humor than you give them credit for.

I'm still not clear as to how this division works. The description in the menu doesn't match how it's being described here. As I understand it so far, the main forum is for stating one's opinion, whether subjectively based or objectively based. Every opinion is equal and none are questioned. The sub-forum is for people who want to argue about the validity of other people's opinions. Am I correct in that?

Thanks
Steve
post #27 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
It has nothing to do with disagreement. It's all about respect.

The big problem for you is, these people are not objectivists. They're the teenage kids who want to "win" the argument at all costs without having to support their points with facts. Instead of backing up what they say, they resort to insults and more insults. Adults need to be able to accept respectful dissenting opinion. Some opinions can be backed up with supporting arguments, some can't. Let them rise and fall on their own merits.

I'm happy to discuss placebo in the objectivist forum. But I don't discuss placebo very much. Usually I'm discussing measurable specs and audibility thresholds, which under any definition of the group falls in the main forum. I don't think that I will be spending very much time with serious discussion in the new forum, and with that flippant description of the forum in the menu, I doubt that anyone else will. You're setting up a "ghost town" forum that will only attract pointless posts. Nothing will change except that you now will have flaming going on in two forums, not just one.

I'm guessing that the reason that it's taken so long for the forum to be opened is that you are waiting for a problem thread to move there to inaugurate it. It's hard to find a clear example of the fault of the objectivist posters, isn't it?

See ya
Steve
It's because your tone in these arguments is so glibly dismissive that you catch it Steve. Sort of like here were everyone who disagrees with you is supposedly mentally and socially immature. Give me a bloody break.
post #28 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by uzziah View Post
just another goofball thing that has ****ed headfi into a C- forum
Well, you are still hanging around...and judging from posts like this, that can't be helping matters. You could leave...that might bring it up to a C+ forum.
post #29 of 180
For those who are wondering about why we decided that we needed to have a separate objectivist forum, perhaps this "typical" exchange will provide some insight. Some of you may have seen this before...as such, it's an oldie but goodie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Newbie
I'm considering buying an upgrade cable for my HD650's. What cable do you guys think will make the most difference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
There is no difference between cables...stick with your stock cable. See this link [[INSERT LINK HERE]].
Quote:
Originally Posted by gristled vet
I've spent a lot of time evaluating cables. What part of the sonic signature are you wanting to enhance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
All cables measure the same...it's a waste of money. Placebo effect...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gristled vet
Now hold on...I've spent a lot of time on this very issue, and I disagree. I know that I can hear the difference between the stock cable and most aftermarket cables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
Well, that's nice...but I'm SURE that you didn't do a properly constructed double-blind test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gristled vet
As a matter of fact, I HAVE done blind testing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
Oh...well, are you certain that you matched the decibel level exactly? That yields different results you know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gristled vet
Yes...we switched the headphones back and forth and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
AH HA!! You can't do a properly executed double blind test with different headphones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Newbie
Gosh, I'm so confused...how do you switch headphone cables around like that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gristled vet
You don't...look, my advice is to attend a meet. Listen to some different cables and find one that you like, and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
Well, fine...if you want to waste your money, go right ahead. All cables sound the same...any extra money spend is a rip-off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auld tymer
I agree...go to a meet. Give a few different options a...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
Pla-CEE-bo effect!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Newbie
Oh geez...well OK, next question. Is there an amp that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
All amps sound the same....see this link [[INSERT LINK HERE]]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Newbie
Quote:
Originally Posted by gristled vet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Man
OK folks...we don't allow this sort of discussion around here, as it ends up being a circular argument with no resolution point. Been there done that...so let's get this thread back on topic please...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cread thrapper
Oh well...censorship. What is it that you moderators are AFRAID of here? Gonna lose sponsors if the truth gets out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Newbie
Quote:
Originally Posted by gristled vet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Man
Tell me you haven't seen this same discussion over and over and over and over and over on this site. I know that I have...
post #30 of 180
So does anyone else find it sadly amusing that this thread has already taken on the tone that created the need for people to want an objectivist forum in the first place?

As for me, I respect and learn from both sides. It's the constant my way or the highway attitude that some seem to have have made such a forum necessary. It's too bad, but I see it's creation as helpful, and hope it's ready soon.
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