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Jitter -- How low is low? - Page 4

post #46 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadden View Post
Why must engineering types so often be so defiantly skeptical to the point of being blockheads. "The science is definative: therefore you are a deluded fool."

Cold Fusion and Infinite Dilution homeopathic tinctures?
post #47 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
That is NOT necessarily true. if you own your cdplayer for a long time and "know" how it sounds, you'll hear differences for the good or the bad on a longer term listening!
That is not necessarily true. I had a graphic reminder of this over the weekend. I have been using a TDA1541 (16 x 2) based CD player for the last month and a bit, I was mightily impressed when I first wired it up and I was sure (absolutely certain in fact) it was much better than my Onkyo (18 x 4) and Marantz (bitstream) machines (even with external DAC) that I have had for a long time (7 years in the case of the Marantz) so much so that I basically stopped using them.

But when I came to do comparisons between them I found that they actually did not sound fundamentally different at all, other than slight level differences. This was a real eye opener for me and just goes to show how very easy it is to be misled by your memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadden View Post
x2 I find being aclimatized then changing something out in a setup makes the difference quite obvious. A/Bing two unknowns is not as helpful. There is also a stress involved that makes for a different kind of listening that perhaps is not helpful in A/B tests.
I dsagree, for me there is no stress in A/B testing unless you choose to be stressed about it. I do this all the time and it causes me no stress, it only causes stress if you are afraid of the outcome i.e if you have a vested interest in the result.

Blind testing is even better and has been shown to be remarkably effective at discriminating real differences. People can detect level differences of fractions of a decibel or a few hz or differences between a few 100s of ns of jitter or fractions of a percent of distortion or between different codecs. These are differences that are far more subtle than the claims made for different CD players. Blind testing is good at showing what we are particularly bad at detecting viz the insertion of low pass filters, the insertion of A/D/A chains and (frequently) the differences between amplifiers or CD players.

Wilson, the speaker manufacturer frequently used listener panels when designing speakers. They found that every time the listeners could see the speaker and knew that it was an expensive well-made speaker they rated its sound quality higher than when they merely were able to hear the speaker. You cannot easily dissociate what you know (or think you know) about something and how you perceive it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadden View Post
Why must engineering types so often be so defiantly skeptical to the point of being blockheads. "The science is definative: therefore you are a deluded fool."
I would not put myself down as an engineering type, two of my degrees are in Psychology, however I would say if you make a claim about two things being different that is easy to do but that doesnt make it so.

A higher standard of proof is required if you want people to part with large sums of money on the basis of said claim. Now if your only cliam is it lowers jitter that is different but you still have to show before and after jitter measurements.
post #48 of 151
I think psychology enters in these discussions a lot more than engineering does
post #49 of 151
excerpt from Foucaults Pendulum...

"There are four kinds of people in this world: cretins, fools, morons, and lunatics...If you take a good look, everybody fits into one of these categories. Each of us is sometimes a cretin, a fool, a moron, or a lunatic. A normal person is just a reasonable mix of these components, these four ideal types...A genius uses one component in a dazzling way, fueling it with the others...Look, don't take me too literally. I'm not trying to put the universe in order. I 'm just saying what a lunatic is from the point of view of a publishing house. Mine is an ad-hoc definition...Now then: cretins. Cretins don't even talk; they sort of slobber and stumble. You know, the guy who presses the ice cream cone against his forehead, or enters a revolving door the wrong way. Being a fool is more complicated. It's a form of social behavior. A fool is one who always talks outside his glass...He wants to talk about what's in the glass, but somehow or other he misses. He's the guy who puts his foot in his mouth. For example, he says how's your lovely wife to someone whose wife has just left him...Fools are in great demand, especially on social occasions. They embarrass everyone but provide material for conversation. In their positive form, they become diplomats. Talking outside the glass when someone else blunders helps to change the subject. But fools don't interest us, either. They're never creative, their talent is all second-hand, so they don't submit manuscripts to publishers. Fools don't claim that cats bark, but they talk about cats when everyone else is talking about dogs. They offend all the rules of conversation, and when they really offend, they're magnificent. It's a dying breed, the embodiment of all the bourgeois virtues...Well, a fool is a Joachim Murat reviewing his officers. He sees one from Martinique covered with medals. 'Vous etes negre?' Murat asks. 'Oui, mon general!' the man answers. And Murat says: 'Bravo, bravo, continuez!' And so on. You follow me?...Morons never do the wrong thing. They get their reasoning wrong. Like the fellow who says all dogs are pets and all dogs bark, and cats are pets, too, and therefore cats bark. Or that all Athenians are mortal, and all the citizens of Piraeus are mortal, so all the citizens of Piraeus are Athenians...Morons will occasionally say something that's right, but they say it for the wrong reason...Morons are tricky. You can spot the fool right away (not to mention the cretin), but the moron reasons almost the way you do; the gap is infinitesimal. A moron is a master of paralogism. For an editor, it's bad news. It can take him an eternity to identify a moron."
post #50 of 151
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
You cannot easily dissociate what you know (or think you know) about something and how you perceive it.

I would say if you make a claim about two things being different that is easy to do but that doesnt make it so.

A higher standard of proof is required if you want people to part with large sums of money on the basis of said claim. Now if your only cliam is it lowers jitter that is different but you still have to show before and after jitter measurements.
No reasonable person would disagree with any of this. You're stating the obvious. Again, there is an implied condescension here surely.
post #51 of 151
Only people that never tried or had a modification to their cdplayer act like this. They think it doesn't make a difference but they don't know since they never heard it.

People that had the reclock mods done all state it makes quite a difference, and since i had some mods done myself, i am inclined to believe them just a little more then people that actually never heard or tried any of this.

Jitter is measurable before and after, but then most people still say it's "probably" inaudable...right. You proof there's a difference, people start talking about other things, so it still couldn't work....it never will satisfy the really hardened critics. Some people are just ignorant.
post #52 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Jitter is measurable before and after, but then most people still say it's "probably" inaudable...right. . Some people are just ignorant.
Show me one instance of jitter measured before and after a clock mod.
post #53 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Only people that never tried or had a modification to their cdplayer act like this. They think it doesn't make a difference but they don't know since they never heard it.

People that had the reclock mods done all state it makes quite a difference, and since i had some mods done myself, i am inclined to believe them just a little more then people that actually never heard or tried any of this.

Jitter is measurable before and after, but then most people still say it's "probably" inaudable...right. You proof there's a difference, people start talking about other things, so it still couldn't work....it never will satisfy the really hardened critics. Some people are just ignorant.
I had clock mods done a FMJ CD23 and the results were akin to a popcorn fart... dry and airy with little substance.

MAJOR SNAKE OIL IMO right up there with power cords

"A fool and his money are soon parted"
post #54 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Know Talent View Post
I had clock mods done a FMJ CD23 and the results were akin to a popcorn fart... dry and airy with little substance.

MAJOR SNAKE OIL IMO right up there with power cords

"A fool and his money are soon parted"
Sorry, do you mean it did make a difference but you just didn't like the result ?
post #55 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
Sorry, do you mean it did make a difference but you just didn't like the result ?
That IS exactly what this snake oil is telling us!
post #56 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Know Talent View Post
I had clock mods done a FMJ CD23 and the results were akin to a popcorn fart... dry and airy with little substance.

MAJOR SNAKE OIL IMO right up there with power cords

"A fool and his money are soon parted"
Werent you the one telling me that any mods on cdplayers don't make any difference?

Well, i just had the passive filter done and it made a huge difference. So, i am not really inclined to believe you on the reclocking part either.

What you like is tons of distortion. Why don't you use a simple mp3 player and be done?
post #57 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
Show me one instance of jitter measured before and after a clock mod.
Show me one person that doesn't say it makes a difference.

By the way, a typical responce by someone that didn't do any mods to his cdplayer, yet knows it all.
post #58 of 151
The only "Jitter" I have experienced, was when I got bad fish at Long John Silvers.
post #59 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penchum View Post
The only "Jitter" I have experienced, was when I got bad fish at Long John Silvers.
Awwwk

Pieces of seven !
Pieces of seven !


Parroty error
post #60 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Show me one person that doesn't say it makes a difference.

By the way, a typical responce by someone that didn't do any mods to his cdplayer, yet knows it all.
I have built several DAC's, experiemented with different recievers like the DIR9001/CS8414, used reclocking. I am just asking a question, you are very defensive.
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