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KECES DA-131 VS ZERO 24/192

post #1 of 17
7/14/08 at 11:09pm
Thread Starter 
I know it is an unfair compare but I really interested to know. The 131 cost 2 times as the Zero. So any comment?
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post #2 of 17
7/14/08 at 11:48pm
Though I haven't heard both, I've had plenty of time with the DA131 and a Great March (which is based on the same AD1852 DAC chip).

The AD1852 based DAC I had was very airy on the top end, and seemed to thrive on detail in the upper registers. Very clear and resolving, but it was too top heavy for what I was after. Bottom end didn't have as much punch, and it was too fast sounding for my musical likings. Electric guitars, male vocals, bass guitars, brass, the air around everything detracted from me really being able to have fun with the music.

The DA131 is a very balanced DAC sound. The top end isn't as airy, but at the same time all the detail is delivered. In comparison, the midrange and bottom are fuller when called upon. The DA131 is quite transparent, bright music is delivered bright. Thick music is delivered thick. For music with a warm sonic signature and good dynamic range, it makes it VERY hard not to crank up the volume. You're not constantly looking for what music has synergy with your source, the DAC doesn't interfere.


Of course, I don't know how well an AD1852 unit scales with a good analog section. The DA131's design focus is purely on the analogue stage, no other circuitry eating up space or price (such as USB, Headphone Amp, XLR, etc etc). If you want a DAC that's main focus is on the analog section, which many believe is the most important part, the Keces delivers.
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post #3 of 17
7/15/08 at 4:10am
There is nothing wrong with adding a headphone stage in a DAC. The basic fundamentals are there already that would cut into the otherwise high price of a standalone headphone amp. I am thinking about the power supply, case, short track length to the HP circuitry. Cost wise it would also be next to nothing to add. If we break down the manufacturing cost of the different sections that constitutes a good to decent DAC, then the HP section would be less than U$20. Compare that to the likely U$50 to U$100 if you release that same HP amp PCB as a stand alone entity.

I agree that the analogue stage design is more important than the DAC chip used, which is in direct conflict with what the non-designers who read too many forums would let confused potential buyers believe. The best analogue output configuration is in my opinion a class A stage that doesn't require any bias considerations. Quite a few couch potato designers recommend discrete outputs as the ultimate source of audiophile satisfaction, but they fall short in mentioning what type of discrete output design would offer the solution. Real life testing, including any blind A-B ones, have not yet confirmed that discrete is better than opamp.
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post #4 of 17
7/15/08 at 12:10pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for info. I think it goes to something like "if your ear can feel the difference then it worth it" route again.
Then the only solution is buy them both.
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post #5 of 17
7/15/08 at 6:29pm
I'd go for the Audiotrak Dr.DAC2. Double headphone amp, better than the other two DAC chip, socketed op-amps, pretty good capacitors.
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post #6 of 17
8/6/08 at 12:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB1 View Post
There is nothing wrong with adding a headphone stage in a DAC. The basic fundamentals are there already that would cut into the otherwise high price of a standalone headphone amp. I am thinking about the power supply, case, short track length to the HP circuitry. Cost wise it would also be next to nothing to add. If we break down the manufacturing cost of the different sections that constitutes a good to decent DAC, then the HP section would be less than U$20. Compare that to the likely U$50 to U$100 if you release that same HP amp PCB as a stand alone entity.

I agree that the analogue stage design is more important than the DAC chip used, which is in direct conflict with what the non-designers who read too many forums would let confused potential buyers believe. The best analogue output configuration is in my opinion a class A stage that doesn't require any bias considerations. Quite a few couch potato designers recommend discrete outputs as the ultimate source of audiophile satisfaction, but they fall short in mentioning what type of discrete output design would offer the solution. Real life testing, including any blind A-B ones, have not yet confirmed that discrete is better than opamp.

Well, we were working on some interesting headphone amp integration "stuff" (wink), and those are definitely NOT cheap to add if you want great performance. For example, the pot we were planning to use costs $20~25 a pop, which actually costs more than some product's entire headphone circuit. It is also quite a squeeze to stuff everything in without interference, adding beefier power, beefier transformer and such...

The mystery unit should be ready for show soon I'll post photo on it when it is close to be ready.
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post #7 of 17
8/6/08 at 10:30am
Maniac, I tried to browse the keces taiwan site - it seems you have many, many other products in your DIY range. Are there any plans to being those to a wider market or are you just planning to stick with the 131 and 151?
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post #8 of 17
8/6/08 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1UP View Post
Maniac, I tried to browse the keces taiwan site - it seems you have many, many other products in your DIY range. Are there any plans to being those to a wider market or are you just planning to stick with the 131 and 151?
Hello, currently KECES is focused on producing DA-131 and DA-151, as well as researching new products. Most of the DIY products need a bit of added information and support, while our current DA-151 and DA-131 is a more polished product that is geared toward great customer experience and robustness. With zero effort from customers.

DIY products usually have a smaller marketshare than finished product, and require extensive support that can be just as costly as building the actual unit. Thus we decided that the DIY part will be slowly faded out and the finished products will be replacing the DIY ones one by one.
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post #9 of 17
8/13/08 at 6:06pm
i'm really interested in this topic too as I'm trying to decide between the two for a DAC. i've been trying to follow the ZERO thread, and it seems like it has a lot going for it after a couple of mods (OPA627, HDAM)

i'm planning to connect this to the Little Dot MK V and Sennheisers HD650, so the amp in the ZERO doesn't really matter (or am I mistaken?).

are there any vouches for one or the other? thanks in advance
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post #10 of 17
8/13/08 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidastoria View Post
i'm really interested in this topic too as I'm trying to decide between the two for a DAC. i've been trying to follow the ZERO thread, and it seems like it has a lot going for it after a couple of mods (OPA627, HDAM)

i'm planning to connect this to the Little Dot MK V and Sennheisers HD650, so the amp in the ZERO doesn't really matter (or am I mistaken?).

are there any vouches for one or the other? thanks in advance
I haven't heard the ZERO, but I'm with Redo in so far as being extremely satisfied with my Keces 131.

If you want to read more user reviews on the keces, check out the head-fi "computer as source" forum - there's a very lengthy thread in there with a lot of positive commentary on the keces units.
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post #11 of 17
8/13/08 at 8:11pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for reply.
I already decide.
Get them both. Already get zero and next is 131.
I will hold for a while to see whether will be new version of 131 soon.
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post #12 of 17
8/14/08 at 12:41am
I really liked the Keces when I heard it. They'll probably be a great combo, and hard to beat at the price, that's for sure. You can always upgrade the Zero by adding the HDAM module, and stretch your value even further.
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post #13 of 17
8/14/08 at 12:44am
Thread Starter 
My plan is a upgrade zero + denon 2000 will be a nice office set.
131+DV332+HD650 will be home then.
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post #14 of 17
8/14/08 at 1:12am
LOL...me too! Exactly the same office setup, but home is everything else in the sig below...I like that the Zero can achieve really good sound for an "all in one" unit of DAC and headphone amp, and the Denons are easy to drive and play nice with a lot of different components.
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post #15 of 17
8/14/08 at 1:21am
Quote:
LOL...me too! Exactly the same office setup, but home is everything else in the sig below...I like that the Zero can achieve really good sound for an "all in one" unit of DAC and headphone amp, and the Denons are easy to drive and play nice with a lot of different components.
No! LD V and D2000 at the office and then LD IV and your HD650 ay home. that would rock
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