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Ultrasone Proline 750 Vs Sennheiser HD600: A Comparative Review - Page 7

post #91 of 104
Does anybody KNOW whats really going on? lololol
Its just too darn funny everyone isnt in agreement yet.
Im curious about these phones because id like to get a set possibly.

Does my Icans give me the basic Ultrasone sound? Or are they totaly different and i cant use them as a reference to tell if id like Ultrasones or not?
post #92 of 104
Ok, i murdered another thread! Im the last post!
post #93 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Maybe we can find some way to share the cost of some Edition 9s with joint custody ...
Hello Covenant and Ross,
I'm going to bump this 4 1/2 month old thread. I have just read a number of Ultrasone threads totaling about 600 pages. Loaded with Rabid FanBoyz!! Then I run across this one. The interesting thing about the first post here is that both guys in this "transaction" own Senns. One guy trades these 750's to the other Senn owner who declares them awesome and Senn killers. I'm takin' Liberties here! Bare with me!

So one Senn owner wants to rid himself of them and the other Senn owner Loves them, FOR A WHILE. Now after reading a few pages of the Lovefest here, Covenant has got rid of those Miraculous 750's and also his Ed 9's, and his sig says Senn's again.

The reason I started reading Ultrasone threads is to see if I would be interested in Ed 9's.

So what happened??? Is this a grass is always greener tale, and then you got tired of the "Gimmick"???
post #94 of 104
I could let Covenant speak for himself but he seems to not be on here as much recently as he used to be.
I asked him basically the same question that les garten asked. He explained to me that the reason he sold his Ed 9 was because he wasn't available to spend enough time with it. And, considering it's cost, he thought he couldn't justify keeping the Ed 9 considering the amount of time he was actually able to spend using it which wasn't nearly enough for him. In actuality, he said that he very much enjoyed the sound of both of these headphones. He thought that the sound of Ed 9 was an improvement over the Pro 750.
The HD 600, from what I understand in communications with Covenant, is what American's call, "his old stand-by". It is the headphone he has kept and used as a comparison to other headphones. From what I understand from communications with him, he actually prefers, when everything is taken into comparative consideration, the sound of the Pro 750 over the HD 600 (which he also enjoys very much) but currently has the HD 600 which is something of a nucleus headphone for him.
post #95 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
One guy trades these 750's to the other Senn owner who declares them awesome and Senn killers. I'm takin' Liberties here! Bare with me!
Yes, you are taking liberties. I never declared them "Senn killers", as that would imply they are better in every respect. They are not. They have a different sound signature, which with the music I compared them on, I tended to prefer over the HD600's.

However, the strengths of the HD600's should be noted as well - they are jacks of all trades and masters of none, in that they manage to sound good with almost everything you throw at them. They also have far superior comfort to both the Pro750 and the Ed9, which is important for me.

Quote:
So what happened??? Is this a grass is always greener tale, and then you got tired of the "Gimmick"???
The Ed9 sounds better than the HD600 in *almost* every way, with the exception being that the Senns have a airier character and greater sense of space. However, this is comparing $2,000 headphones to $300 headphones. And my time spent with my home audio rig is starting to pale in comparison to the time spent with my portables, so I couldn't justify maintaining the investment.

Hope this clarifies things for you, les_garten.
post #96 of 104
Hi Covenant,
The OP was that the Ultrasones matched or beat the Senns in 8 out of 10 of your matchups. I would call that a kill.

So here's where I'm going with this. Two Senn guys, both had Ultrasones, now both are Senn guys again??

Wht wouldn't you keep the Ultrasones or one of the Ultrasones and dump the Senn's??
post #97 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavoman View Post
What a great, and insightful, post. Same for donunus' comment too. This very important point -- persitence of auditory memory -- applies to other HP listening as well. Has been said before in this forum, but not quite this well and not with this amazing real-life experience to back it up.

Covenant and donunus -- thanks.

Persistence of vision is well-known, and is the "trick" behind a number of close-up magic effects. But this effect less so.

Ultrasones is the master of messing up your mind. I was one that got the S-logic thing straight away though when I got my 750s. Maybe because I as a gamer played a lot of games that uses binaural techniques before???

However I have noticed that the soundstage seem to have moved backwards on the 750. At first I noticed they where about equally 3d front and back so to speak but lately the soundstage behind me is wider then it´s in front so to speak. On both the 750 and 900. I like to think that your brain gets trained and harder to fool the more you use them. Still it´s still there and so much better for binaural recordings than any other headphones I have tried. It´s mentioned quite often that they don´t do very good at meetings when running 5 minutes each headphone. Most seem to think it´s overhyped after listening to them at these meetings whereas some get it straight away like me . And with all this transformations you never know what you get is both fun and frustrating lol

The 750 have sounded totally garbage at times so I can understand why it´s such a love/hate headphone. If I pick the AKG 240M or DT 770 PRO or other headphones without S-logic they sound the same pretty much always.

I also wonder since the 750 really forces you to activally listen and not relax and with all the 3d positioning it does get more tiring for your brain to process it all I would think.
post #98 of 104
You need to train your brain then, it shouldn't get tired.
post #99 of 104
Why not lol.
post #100 of 104
this review is getting me more excited to get my prolines.

Hi Oqvist and Don Victor Corleone , you guys seem to be the hardest core posters among the ultrasone crowd lately. Weird coincidence you've both been my latest headphone trade partners
post #101 of 104
Well I'm only fond of the ED9 the ALO780J and 900, but yes .
post #102 of 104
maybe one day you'll sell me those alo780s for a good price when you're ready to let them go
post #103 of 104
That won't be soon, I'm returning these ED9's next week though, won't miss them. For now I really have no idea what headphone I should let go, probably one of the stax's, dunno.
post #104 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
Preface

Good day all. Let me preface this review by letting you all know my reasons for writing it.

First and foremost, there is very little knowledge about Ultrasone headphones out there, despite heroic efforts on the behalf of the "big thread" and the early supporters championing its cause. Particularly amongst the Sydney community very few of us have had the oppertunity to listen to an Ultrasone headphone, and many of us have been very curious about this hitherto-unknown manufacturer.

The HD600, however, is a very well-known and established benchmark in the headphone world, and is still raved about for its musicality, involving warmth, and balance. The purpose of this review is to hopefully give some insight into the strengths and characteristics of the still-much-unknown Ultrasone Proline 750 when compared against the benchmark most of us are familiar with.

The Proline 750 at the time of writing has 150hrs of burn-in, at least 20 of which were spent on my head, accustoming myself to its 'S-Logic' presentation. The HD600 have easily a thousand hours or more. Both are stock cabled.

This review is written using the Pico as a source/amp, with lossless Flac files ripped using EAC secure mode, and ASIO4ALL bypassing windows Kmixer, for as pure a digital signal chain as I can create. While I understand that the Pico, despite being a heavy-hitter for a portable unit is far from a reference-grade home setup, I feel that it powers both these 'phones adequately, and is neutral enough in itself to let me hear the flaws in the 'phones and source material.


A little about me

I have owned the HD600 for about 2 years. Prior to that I owned a Sony SA5000 as my main 'home' headphone. While the Sonys had some fierce advantages over basically any other dynamic headphone out there - excellent speed, unbelievable transient response, microdetail, and clear, crystalline treble - they lacked in some very important areas for me. Namely the domains of tone, body, and bass weight. This made them excellent for some genres, but fairly inept at others.

The Sennheisers in comparison were not as fast, certainly not as detailed, and possessed of mellow, rolled-off treble, made up for all that with inherent, natural musicality, heft, weight, and tonal realism, which ultimately made them better all-rounders for me.

2 years down the track, and I still hadnt found anything I preferred universally over the HD600. Recently a fellow Sydney Head-Fi'er expressed interest in buying my APureSound V3 sennheiser cable, and offered a set of new Proline 750's in exchange. I'd never heard an Ultrasone, so I couldnt very well trade blind, so we agreed to do a temporary swap so that we can both thoroughly audition the respective items at home over the course of a few weeks.

Suffice to say, the trade has since become permanent, with me enjoying the Prolines too much to let them go. Thanks again for cueing me onto these, Ross. You're a gentleman and a scholar

I listen to a very big variety of genres and styles of music. For this review I've attempted to give impressions across as many genres as possible. Anyhaps, on to the review!


Build quality, comfort, practicality

The Proline 750 is not what anyone would call a luxury to wear. The earcups are on the small side, and not very deep, so you're always aware of the contact with your ears. Over time one acclimatizes to this and it becomes less of a bother, but over the first week I was constantly fiddling with the fit and adjusting the earcups to alleviate minor discomforts, which noticably detracted from the enjoyment of the headphone.

The Sennheisers in comparison feel like slipping on a favourite cotton bath robe, they glide into place and around the ears like a comfort. However keep in mind my HD600 has had over 2 years to shape itself to my head, wheras the Prolines have only had 2 weeks. Alot of the comparative comfort I feel could be due to simply being used to the way the Senns feel.

Both headphones feature a removable cable, which I very much like. Ultrasone's implementation goes one step further however, with a single-sided entry and a threaded connector, making it very secure for a removable cable. The stock Ultrasone cable also feels significantly tougher than the thin HD600 cable, sheathed in a thicker layer of insulation.

Isolation and leakage arent really issues for me, however it should be noted that the Proline 750 does leak, and a fair bit at that. Nothing compared to the open HD600 of course, but it is not silent, even with the cups pressed together. Isolation from outside noise is however quite good with the Prolines, completely blocking out the sound of my computer fan, my door opening/closing, the TV out in the lounge room, visitors arriving, and so forth. Good for tuning out.

Some glamour pics of the two heavy hitters:












Enough faffing about, how do they SOUND?

For my comparisons between how these two headphones sound, i've selected 10 reference tracks from different artists and different genres of music, and compared them both using these tracks.

Round one
Diana Krall - The Girl In The Other Room

PL750:
With the Prolines, this track takes on a lovely sense of intimacy and vibrancy. The mental impression I get is of sitting across the table from Diana, in a softly candlelit venue for two, as she softly croons a private serenade. The double bass and other instruments flank her, slightly behind and to each side, respecting our privacy.

Diana's vocal is smooth and textured, with just a hint of sweetness. It is not a euphonic presentation, and it is not invested with unnatural smoothness nor overt forwardness. It maintains its locality in the soundfield, just across the dinner table from me.

The double bass reverberates impressively throughout this piece, going deep and low and adding a weight and conviction to the whole presentation. Despite the subtle glory of the bass, the Prolines succeed in not over-emphasising it, allowing it to fit naturally into the soundstage in a complimentary rather than overwhelming fashion.

HD600:
Immediately on switching to the HD600, I notice the vocal has lost some element of intimacy. Diana is no longer sitting just across the table from me. Now it is as if she is on a low platform or stage, with me in a front-row seat below her. The presentation is still close, but its not a private event anymore.

The increased sense of space detracts from rather than benefits this track. Oddly, Diana's vocal seems slightly harsher or more artificial on the HD600 than it did the Prolines. This album is known for bad mastering, so perhaps the HD600 is revealing that more noticably than the Prolines for her vocal.

The double bass becomes bereft of its deep, resonant glory with the Senns, and becomes just another instrument in the background. Cymbal strikes are not as localised, their shimmer is diffused over a wider area, giving them less immediacy.

Winner of round one: Proline 750


Round Two
Dream Theatre - Learning to Live

PL750:
Very first impression: 'ZOMG the drums!'. Drums hit with a speed and impact that is very noticable, with a visceral feeling that few headphones are able to reproduce. The sound of the drums is possessed of an elastic, organic realism and clear seperation in the soundfield.

The soundstage on this track, however, appears very flat on the PL750. There is width there, but no 3-dimensionality. Vocals are also slightly recessed. The flatness of the presentation detracts significantly from the enjoyment of the track.

HD600:
With the Senns, the soundstage changes. Localisation and imaging becomes less clear, more diffuse.. but the space the instruments have to work in becomes larger, in both width and height (but still not much depth). Bass is also quite good, not to the level that the Prolines provided, but satisfactory.

Vocals may be a hair less recessed, but still slightly swamped in the soundfield. All in all, the bigger soundstage of the Senns make this track eminently more listenable and engaging than the flat-but-wide presentation of the Prolines.

Winner of round two: HD600


Round three
Enigma - Gravity of Love

PL750:
The Ultrasone's capacity for deep, textured, 3-dimensional bass is shown exceptionally well here. The subterrainian rumble of the intro on this track is immediately gripping, with the vocals cascading down from above like water trickling through the ceiling of a cavern.

The Prolines imbue this track with a very 3-dimensional sense of space that this track needs. However the clarity of treble on the Prolines also makes some digital artifacts in the mastering of this track more readily apparent. This is forgivable in this instance because the track is very much bass-centric, with treble playing a counterpoint or contrasting role.

HD600:
Treble harshness/bad mastering artifacts are less apparent on these, noticably so. Bass is shallower, lesseing the effect and believability of the bass echoes and rumble this track possesses.

The 3-dimensional mental image of the soundscape immediately loses some of its definition and conviction. The mind's eye can no longer recreate a scene of standing by a subterrainian lake, as it can with the Prolines.

Winner of round three: Proline 750


Round four
Fleetwood Mac - Crystal

PL750:
First thing thats noticable here is the unnatural amount of seperation in the soundscape. The lead male vocal is positioned to the very left of the field, with his female counterpoint chiming in on the right. The seperation is pushed to the point that the presentation becomes disjointed and unenjoyable on the Prolines.

Bass lines are possessed of a nice rumble and heft to them, though. I wonder if the unnatural seperation is a product of this era of recording, as I've noticed it with Steppenwolf to a great degree as well.

HD600:
Male vocal's back closer to the centre, bringing the entire presentation into focus and making the track enjoyable again. The HD600's signature 'creaminess' of presentation also lends itself very well here, creating a soft, sensuous, relaxing experience with this track.

Winner of round four: HD600


Round five
Loreena McKennitt - The Highwayman

PL750:
Instruments are noticably heavy and resonant in the opening passage. Not a heaviness as in slowness, but heaviness as in very immediate, vibrant, apparent. Loreena's vocals sound amazing through the Prolines. Her voice is gripping, clear, textured, and tonally believable. She is smooth, but not unnaturally so. During some of the more emotional points in the lyric her voice possesses a power to capture and invoke the listener that is portrayed very well through the Prolines.

This track comes off as slightly fatigueing on the Prolines, however, simply due to excessive resonance from the background instruments providing too much detail and musical pressure throughout the track. This does not in any way smear or mar the balance and seperation of the soundstage - there is simply too much going on all the time, and the Prolines seem to refuse to let anything take a background seat, making every instrument readily heard. Which is also not to say that the presentation is overly forward, because it isnt. There's simply an excess of resonance here that one can only listen to comfortably for so long.

HD600:
Diana's vocal becomes even smoother on the HD600, and somehow ephemeral, as if some sort of seraph or siren were delivering the refrain rather than a human woman. This is a pleasing effect at first, but then one tends to miss the natural believability of the Prolines, which humanise her voice in entirely good ways. Overall the vocal delivery becomes less involving and emotionally gripping on the HD600 because of this.

Background instrument resonance however is tamed, bringing the presentation into greater balance.

Winner of round five: Tied


Round six
Michael Jackson - Black or White

PL750:
Best way to summarise the effect: I wanted to stop writing and start dancing. And i'm not a dancer.

Very PraTty, full of energy, punchy dynamics, and visceral drum impacts beating out the rhythm. Michael's voice always sounds strained on this track, as if he'd been performing for an hour before singing it, and the Prolines portray this well. Vocals sound primal and tonally believable rather than harsh, creating an overall pleasing effect.

HD600:
Where did the drums go? Michael's voice becomes harsh and thin. And for some reason or other, the soundstage seems to collapse with the HD600's on this track. What was catchy and involving on the Prolines now sound flat and headphoney. This was the only track where the Prolines demolished the HD600's in every respect.

Winner of round six: Proline 750


Round seven
Nightwish - Leaving You For Me

PL750:
Intro is immediately gripping. Once the rest of the band joins in though, the poorness of the recording becomes immediately and irrevocably apparent. I suspect this album suffers the effect of the 'loudness wars'. The chorous is completely robbed of enjoyment due to the flat, diffused, complete lack of dynamic range.

However, the Prolines do invest this track with some redeeming graces that make it somewhat listenable. The main bass rhythm of the track is full of heft, weight, and impact, beating out a palpable pulse to the song. Both male and female vocals are also very clear and seperate in the otherwise-uninvolving soundfield.

HD600:
Intro is no longer immediately gripping. The lack of dynamic range and flatness of the chorous is also less apparent - the bigger soundstage of the HD600 streches the instruments out to increase localisation and imaging. It still doesnt sound very good, but it doesnt sound as bad as before.

This benefit comes with drawbacks, though. Vocals become more diffused, less pure and clear than with the Prolines. And the central bass attack that was beating out the pulse of the music on the Prolines becomes almost unnoticable, bereaving the track of much of its enjoyment. All in all, the Prolines make this track the more listenable of the two.

Winner of round seven: Proline 750


Round eight
Savage Garden - Mine

PL750:
Holy begeebus. Massively dynamic, clear imaging and localisation, very 3-dimensional soundstage. When the electronic riff starts up in the second half of this track the Prolines create a very eargasmic experience. Combined with the deep drum hits at just the right moments, this was definitely a wow experience with these 'phones.

HD600:
No contest. Attacks lose their sharpness, dynamics become diffused, as if someone had thrown a blanket over a pair of unruly children. Soundstage becomes flatter, vocal becomes less involving.

Winner of round eight: Proline 750


Round nine
Sting - The Book of my Life

PL750:
Very textured violins, the attention immediately fastens on them and relaxes at their purity. The light percussion in the intro is amazingly delicate, showcasing a great deal of speed on the behalf of the Prolines. Sting's vocal is smooth, textured and just tonally rich enough to be believable without becoming coloured or euphonic. Seperation and imaging remains very good throughout the track.

HD600:
Sting's vocal becomes even smoother. Is this a good thing? Perhaps not, as it certainly wasnt harsh or grainy on the Prolines. The HD600 signature creaminess lends itself here as well, coating Sting's vocals like a thin sheet of silk.

While this is pleasing, I'm not altogether convinced that i'd call it better. Sting is naturally smooth and mellow, and this is portrayed in a faithful way with the Prolines. Violins lose some of their texture in favour of heightened smoothness as well, and transient response slows to the point that the delicate percussion that was a delight on the Prolines becomes largely unnoticable.

Winner of round nine: Proline 750


Final round
Tool - The Grudge

PL750:
Deep bass and visceral heft serve the Proline well here. Transient response again excellent, highlighting the fast percussion of the intro. Very 3-dimensional presentation throughout. The lead singer's voice has a guttural primal nature to it that makes this song so gripping.

HD600:
Where did the drums go, again? Slower transient response becomes apparent, as the percussion once again blends in and diffuses with the rest of the instruments. Vocals lose some of their primal texture, becoming more generic and smoother.

Winner of the final round: Proline 750


Summary

round 1 Diana Krall: PL750
round 2 Dream Theatre: HD600
round 3 Enigma: PL750
round 4 Fleetwood Mac: HD600
round 5 Loreena McKennitt: Tied
round 6 Michael Jackson: PL750
round 7 Nightwish: PL750
round 8 Savage Garden: PL750
round 9 Sting: PL750
round 10 Tool: PL750

2 rounds to the HD600, 7 to the PL750, and one tied.

Would I call the Proline 750 an overall better phone than the HD600 because of these results? Certainly not. They are different, and both excellent in their own ways.

That said, the Ultrasones strike me as the more refined and technically capable of the two, possessing greater finesse and dynamics, whilst maintaining a natural, enjoyable, neutral tone. The Prolines remind me a good deal of my old Sony SA5000, with their most unforgivable flaws remedied. Perhaps not quite as fast or as microdetailed as the Sonys (which I still view as the closest a dynamic 'phone has ever come to electrostatic speed), but possessed of a much fuller, richer sound, deep and heavy-hitting bottom end, and BODY, which the SA5K lacks without top-notch amplification and/or balanced operation.

The Ultrasone gurus tell me that at 150hrs the Prolines should still have a bit of burn in to go, so I look forward to further refinements in their sound as they loosen up and as I accustom myself to them further. I hope this review was informative and shed some light on this stealth-bomber of a headphone.
nce review i wonder how th ehd650 would fare,

i personally am looking for a closed back ultrasone phone particularly the one with the most bass punch,,, i was thinkin 780 and then i found out 580 have larger 50mm driver so which has more bass??
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