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Rega P2 - Best TT under $600-$700??? - Page 5

post #61 of 73
9/7/08 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by searchenabler View Post
Hey man, awesome! Glad to see that you got the real value table instead of one of those so-called entry level audiophile tables like the Rega, where you get so much less for your money. And unlike the entry level Rega/Pro-Ject/etc., the table itself on that Technics is no limiting factor in terms of engineering and quality, and you can comfortable mount ANY arm you may want to later use, be it a $400 arm or a $4000 one, and be confident in that the Technics table is still one of the most well engineered tables around to match with a superbly well engineered arm.

-Chris
The Technics isn't perfect but it is very well made with fairly heavy parts and it does play at the correct speed which is a very big deal.
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post #62 of 73
9/7/08 at 11:17am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the comments. It has been a joy to have so far. So incredibly easy to set up the way Kevin sends them. Impeccably packaged too. I had a big upgrade going from my old AT turntable. The best part is re-discovering my record collection.
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post #63 of 73
9/7/08 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
The Technics isn't perfect but it is very well made with fairly heavy parts and it does play at the correct speed which is a very big deal.
As far as I know, NOTHING is perfect. But the Technics is an inert, noiseless rotating platter with extreme rotating speed accuracy; I can't see it limiting the performance of any arm/cartridge that one may choose to use. It's build quality and engineering are just so high compared to most - I think you know what I mean. It may not have the look that audiophiles usually want; it might seem too utilitarian. I have seen things said about the table, about it lacking certain sound qualities that proper 'hi end' tables such as an entry level Rega(or other brand name of choice) have, and to me, it read just like any other B.S. that was completely fabricated(using biased, sighted evaluation) without any proper/real evidence, especially considering the mediocre engineering effort and build quality of said entry level 'audiophile' tables when compared to the Technics for the same price range.

-Chris
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post #64 of 73
9/7/08 at 1:30pm
I love my Technics turntable as well. I am thinking about some of the KAB upgrades... but I'm not sure where to start. Anyone know a good rewire? My RCA outs are pretty corroded.
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post #65 of 73
9/7/08 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by searchenabler View Post
As far as I know, NOTHING is perfect. But the Technics is an inert, noiseless rotating platter with extreme rotating speed accuracy; I can't see it limiting the performance of any arm/cartridge that one may choose to use. It's build quality and engineering are just so high compared to most - I think you know what I mean. It may not have the look that audiophiles usually want; it might seem too utilitarian. I have seen things said about the table, about it lacking certain sound qualities that proper 'hi end' tables such as an entry level Rega(or other brand name of choice) have, and to me, it read just like any other B.S. that was completely fabricated(using biased, sighted evaluation) without any proper/real evidence, especially considering the mediocre engineering effort and build quality of said entry level 'audiophile' tables when compared to the Technics for the same price range.

-Chris
I think the Technics 1200 can easily compete with any deck out there up to the $2000 level. Beyond that point it's somewhat over damped plinth starts to become a factor. Perhaps with a plinth upgrade it could be taken quite a bit further but I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's stock plinth will limit dynamics and detail to a very small degree.
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post #66 of 73
9/7/08 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
I think the Technics 1200 can easily compete with any deck out there up to the $2000 level. Beyond that point it's somewhat over damped plinth starts to become a factor. Perhaps with a plinth upgrade it could be taken quite a bit further but I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's stock plinth will limit dynamics and detail to a very small degree.
I can't agree with you. A high level of dampening is a desirable thing, if fidelity/accuracy is the objective. I do not want any colorations added due to a resonant part. I want only what is recorded on that vinyl disc. And also, based on your statement about the platter being too damped, then many super high end units with the super massive thick platters certainly are 'vastly' over-damped/dead, with these platters that can not possible have any significant response. I don't think you can fairly attach a comparative dollar amount limiting the equivalent performance of the Technics. It seems to me, it has no limit; it is just as about as close to neutral spinning platter and table as can be had. It should add nor take away virtually anything, itself. I see it as a blank slate to use virtually any arm and/or cartridge that you so desire, without limiting the performance of that arm and/or cartridge.

Chris



-Chris
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post #67 of 73
9/7/08 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by searchenabler View Post
I can't agree with you. A high level of dampening is a desirable thing, if fidelity/accuracy is the objective. I do not want any colorations added due to a resonant part. I want only what is recorded on that vinyl disc. And also, based on your statement about the platter being too damped, then many super high end units with the super massive thick platters certainly are 'vastly' over-damped/dead, with these platters that can not possible have any significant response. I don't think you can fairly attach a comparative dollar amount limiting the equivalent performance of the Technics. It seems to me, it has no limit; it is just as about as close to neutral spinning platter and table as can be had. It should add nor take away virtually anything, itself. I see it as a blank slate to use virtually any arm and/or cartridge that you so desire, without limiting the performance of that arm and/or cartridge.
-Chris
The Technics 1200 is an amazingly great deck to the $2000 level. At $2195 you can get a Roksan Radius 5 and at $2495 you can get a JA Michell Gyro SE. Without a plinth upgrade for the Technics 1200, these decks will gain a performance advantage at their price ranges. I read one instance on the internet where a Gyro owner gave up on it for speed problems but I believe this in uncommon. The Gyro has an excellent reputation. Used high end decks from the past with tonearm upgrades will also come into play at this price range.
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post #68 of 73
9/8/08 at 12:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
The Technics 1200 is an amazingly great deck to the $2000 level. At $2195 you can get a Roksan Radius 5 and at $2495 you can get a JA Michell Gyro SE. Without a plinth upgrade for the Technics 1200, these decks will gain a performance advantage at their price ranges. I read one instance on the internet where a Gyro owner gave up on it for speed problems but I believe this in uncommon. The Gyro has an excellent reputation. Used high end decks from the past with tonearm upgrades will also come into play at this price range.
In what real way(let's assume using the same arm in all cases) can a Radius or Gyro exceed the performance of the Technics in terms of accuracy? To me, it's about fidelity, not colorations(I don't want them in my source).

Personally, I don't have a Technics(I use a Marantz TT-15S1), I just want to be clear on that, that I'm not a fan boy or something. I just look at it for it's actual engineering, build quality and measurable performance/quality and see the obvious quality of this device for neutral/accurate applications.

Chris
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post #69 of 73
9/8/08 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by searchenabler View Post
In what real way(let's assume using the same arm in all cases) can a Radius or Gyro exceed the performance of the Technics in terms of accuracy? To me, it's about fidelity, not colorations(I don't want them in my source).

Personally, I don't have a Technics(I use a Marantz TT-15S1), I just want to be clear on that, that I'm not a fan boy or something. I just look at it for it's actual engineering, build quality and measurable performance/quality and see the obvious quality of this device for neutral/accurate applications.

Chris
The ultimate goal of any good turntable is to produce a set of electronic signals from the recording that is exactly identical to the signals used to make that recording. This seems kind of simple but no machine designed by man is capable of doing this. All any engineer can really do is to design a turntable that sounds as good as possible at the given cost objective. As turntables go up in price, they tend to do a better job at sound reproduction. A place that is very good at determining value in turntable hardware is TNT-Audio. Geoff Husband is the reviewer who goes over the more expensive models and he actually uses a Michell Orbe as his standard reference. This probable doesn't really answer your question but by doing some reading you can get a better feel for what the better models can do that are missing in lesser units. The best turntables out there are way overkill for the rest of the gear I own but it would be fun to borrow an Orbe for a couple of weeks.
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post #70 of 73
9/8/08 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
As turntables go up in price, they tend to do a better job at sound reproduction.
I am afraid that I have to disagree with you. One cannot bribe a turntable to do a better job by selling it for more. Price is partly decided by supply and demand. The Technics 1200 for example is dirt cheap compared to the cost of the engineering that has gone into it. However, it is the most sold TT in the last 25 years, making production cost a mere pittance compared to if it had just entered the market.
At the bottom end of the scale you have the cheap to make Rega P2 and P3 that could be knocked up for very little in a shed, but are considered quite decent players.
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post #71 of 73
9/8/08 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB1 View Post
I am afraid that I have to disagree with you. One cannot bribe a turntable to do a better job by selling it for more. Price is partly decided by supply and demand. The Technics 1200 for example is dirt cheap compared to the cost of the engineering that has gone into it. However, it is the most sold TT in the last 25 years, making production cost a mere pittance compared to if it had just entered the market.
At the bottom end of the scale you have the cheap to make Rega P2 and P3 that could be knocked up for very little in a shed, but are considered quite decent players.
I think my statement still holds true for when the 1200 first entered the market. It has actually gone down in price over the years with respect to inflation. Its an excellent value. I use one myself.
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post #72 of 73
9/8/08 at 9:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
The ultimate goal of any good turntable is to produce a set of electronic signals from the recording that is exactly identical to the signals used to make that recording. This seems kind of simple but no machine designed by man is capable of doing this. All any engineer can really do is to design a turntable that sounds as good as possible at the given cost objective. As turntables go up in price, they tend to do a better job at sound reproduction. A place that is very good at determining value in turntable hardware is TNT-Audio. Geoff Husband is the reviewer who goes over the more expensive models and he actually uses a Michell Orbe as his standard reference. This probable doesn't really answer your question but by doing some reading you can get a better feel for what the better models can do that are missing in lesser units. The best turntables out there are way overkill for the rest of the gear I own but it would be fun to borrow an Orbe for a couple of weeks.
I disagree that using a subjective review site is a way to get an accurate bearing the situation. At best, it can be used as a loose[very loose] guidance tool.

I do believe, that in narrow cases/situations, that more money can buy 'better'; but only when this parameter that needs to be improved is very specific, and the 'improvement' has true known and measurable improvements of this parameter. This parameter must also be shown to be truly relevant to the situation; not just speculation. Blindly throwing more money at a problem will not necessarily get you real improvements, though. I don't believe that the Orbe is a superior device to the SL-1200, so far as audibility is concerned, if comparing the tables using the same arm/cartridge. Of course, the Orbe looks much more impressive. Of course, in sighted listening, the Orbe would probably be chosen most of the time: the reputation and looks have a very strong effect on perception. Dare I say that even I would probably perceive the Orbe as better under sighted conditions.

-Chris
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post #73 of 73
9/10/08 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by searchenabler View Post
... when this parameter that needs to be improved is very specific, and the 'improvement' has true known and measurable improvements of this parameter. This parameter must also be shown to be truly relevant to the situation; not just speculation.
The Technics SL1200 is a fine deck but there have been developments especially in tonearms since the 1970s. See this thread for comparartive measurements I culled from old mags.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/who...39/index2.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchenabler View Post
I don't believe that the Orbe is a superior device to the SL-1200, so far as audibility is concerned, if comparing the tables using the same arm/cartridge.
Most tests between heavily upgraded Technics SL1200s and high end belt drives, that I have read, conclude that in certain respects such as timing the direct drive motor is very hard to best.

However they usually go on to say that in other respects like soundstage most modern high end belt drives leave even a heavily pimped SL1200 standing and you really need to move further up the pecking order into vintage high end direct drives like the Technics SL-1000 / SP10 to level the playing field.

Most of the improvements afforded over the SL1200 are to the plinth, which although an excellent design and superbly made, was never the last word even by Technics own standards of 30 years ago. The SL-1000 plinth was made of Obsidian (volcanic glass) and you see a lot of SP10's these days mounted in slate, marble or massive wooden plinths. see here for more info

Still the SL1200 is an amazing bargain for the money, given the level of engineering and the price of modern decks, has more to do with the boutique nature of the market for 'record players' now, than anything else...
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