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pico or predator....

post #1 of 19
5/29/08 at 10:38am
Thread Starter 
or should I just stick to my Porta Corda?
cheers dom
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post #2 of 19
5/29/08 at 11:24am
I had both for quite some time and I chose Pico
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post #3 of 19
5/29/08 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSlacker View Post
I had both for quite some time and I chose Pico
I pre-ordered the Pico because they say that the Predator needs a long burn in period and also I will be using it mostly with my laptop and the Dac in the Pico is suppose to be the best. Hope this helped.
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post #4 of 19
5/29/08 at 11:46am
My pico is winging its way across the atlantic so maybe i'm biased but...


this has gotta be an either or scenario surely, I think the differences between these two amp/dac combo's are all down to subjective opinions and likes and dislikes

I THOUGHT the pred had the same dac chip as the pico, in which case, they both have hot dacs)
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post #5 of 19
5/29/08 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzer1975 View Post
this has gotta be an either or scenario surely, I think the differences between these two amp/dac combo's are all down to subjective opinions and likes and dislikes

I THOUGHT the pred had the same dac chip as the pico, in which case, they both have hot dacs)
The differences between the Pico and Predator are more than aurally subjective. Electronic devices such as amps can be measured in various ways, and some people find measurements to be very useful in determining certain aspects of objective quality. Incidentally, HeadAmp has posted some measurements of the Pico in the MoT thread, you can find them by searching for all posts by Justin.

RSA has not advertised the DAC inside the Predator and when I opened the unit that I bought & owned for some time, it was not visually identifiable due to some painting over it. HeadAmp has advertised the DAC inside the Pico (Wolfson WM8740) and it is identifiable when the unit is opened.
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post #6 of 19
5/29/08 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzer1975 View Post
I THOUGHT the pred had the same dac chip as the pico, in which case, they both have hot dacs)
Not even close.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3778245-post71.html
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post #7 of 19
5/29/08 at 12:15pm
From what I have read about peoples opinions between the two dacs, while I was aware of the dac chip inside the pico as I ordered one myself, I was under the impression that even if it was not widely known what dac was inside the predator, owing to its comparisons between that and the pico that are on here, it was a reasonable assumption to presume if not the flagship wolfson, then an equally high performer.

So as of right now, no one knows what dac is in the predator? although the link andrew wot provided was very interesting.

In which case, how can the two dacs be compared other than on a subjective basis if the dac inside the pred is not known?

Lastly, presumably then, I would be right right in thinking that the pico has the better quality electronic components, at least with regards the dac?

p.s. thanks for clearing my original assumptions up asr and andrew wot
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post #8 of 19
5/29/08 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzer1975 View Post
From what I have read about peoples opinions between the two dacs, while I was aware of the dac chip inside the pico as I ordered one myself, I was under the impression that even if it was not widely known what dac was inside the predator, owing to its comparisons between that and the pico that are on here, it was a reasonable assumption to presume if not the flagship wolfson, then an equally high performer.
I think most of the reason the Pico and Predator are often mentioned together is primarily due to the fact both were released in the same year, are the latest products from both vendors, are of similar type, and are very close in price - not necessarily because of any actual technological similarities between them. Also, price is not often used as an objective indicator of quality parts throughout, as the "micro" parts inside an electronics device have their own individual costs, which may or may not be relatively matched against each other - the cost of parts can be broken down between the DAC section, analog output stage, and amp section (oh and the power section as well). So to assume that because the $500 Pico uses the Wolfson WM8740, the $475 Predator also uses a DAC in a similar class, is erroneous - you do not have all the information necessary to make an assumption.
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post #9 of 19
5/29/08 at 12:40pm
re price and comparisons, absolutely, I have stated many times on these boards price should in no way be indicative of quality or sound quality or wether a thing is objectively or subjectively better.

Like I said, I was basing my assumption on the similiar electronics between the two amps/dacs on the apparent 50/50 split amongst members who like either the pico or the predator the most, thus seemingly it boiled down to a subjective opinion as opposed any technical supremacy of one amp other the other.

All that being said, and from reading the other links provided it would appear that no one knows what electronics are inside the predator and therefore only a subjective comparison on sound signatures can be achieved?

I am eager to know if this is essentially the case or not as explained earlier, I was under the impression it was a personal preference scenario between the two amps/dacs if this is not the case, it would be useful for all of us to know what things will provide an objective evaluation of the two amps/dacs in their own right further informing people of which would be the best purchase for them.

Lastly, and I have a vested interest here as I am about to receive the pico, but would I be right in thinking that the pico has the better dac chip? From the link Andrew Wot posted, it would seem so, but again, there is no certainty...
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post #10 of 19
5/29/08 at 12:58pm
Of course, subjective audio comparison is always useful and has its place. But in the objective world, amps are electronic devices that are built from various parts, depending on the implementation. Both the Pico and Predator are op-amp based, and op-amps are designed with specific parameters in mind that are easily looked up on the manufacturers' Web sites (Analog Devices, TI, et al). Op-amps are also individually measurable, and certain op-amps can certainly measure better than others in aspects like distortion and slew rate - both of which affect the subjective perception of audio.

There are five ICs on the Pico that are visually identifiable, three of which HeadAmp has advertised - the Wolfson WM8740 (DAC), Analog Devices AD1896 (up-sampler), Analog Devices AD8397 (op-amp). The other two are the TI PCM2707 (USB receiver) and National Semiconductor LMH66 (not sure myself what role it's used for). There are also clearly an array of other micro-sized parts on the Pico in the various sections, as well as the 16V capacitor that absorbs turn-on surge, and the 8.4V Li-poly battery pack.

Objectively, all these parts together influence the sound and performance of the Pico, and they can be individually looked up on their respective manufacturers' Web sites for very detailed technical specifications and performance values. High-performing parts will translate to optimal sound quality.
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post #11 of 19
5/29/08 at 1:02pm
I would have to say the Predator, since if you're patient, the sound that comes from this amp is nothing short of glorious. I've reached the 300 hour mark, and this amp's sounding NOTHING like it did when I first purchased a few months back.
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post #12 of 19
5/29/08 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asr View Post
Of course, subjective audio comparison is always useful and has its place. But in the objective world, amps are electronic devices that are built from various parts, depending on the implementation. Both the Pico and Predator are op-amp based, and op-amps are designed with specific parameters in mind that are easily looked up on the manufacturers' Web sites (Analog Devices, TI, et al). Op-amps are also individually measurable, and certain op-amps can certainly measure better than others in aspects like distortion and slew rate - both of which affect the subjective perception of audio.
Asr once again thanks for your replies and patience, it is much appreciated.

To anyone else in the know and to continue with the op's question, has anyone done these measurements between the pico and predator, and are the graphs and results available for viewing?

Furthermore, what are the results between the two dac sections of these devices?
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post #13 of 19
5/29/08 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzer1975 View Post
Asr once again thanks for your replies and patience, it is much appreciated.

To anyone else in the know and to continue with the op's question, has anyone done these measurements between the pico and predator, and are the graphs and results available for viewing?

Furthermore, what are the results between the two dac sections of these devices?
RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison
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post #14 of 19
5/29/08 at 2:15pm
It would be nice if measurements could tell all but they don't and some cases tell nothing. I have tube preamp I built and a tube dac and I "know" they would measure terrible. How do they sound? Unbelievably real with such a lifelike quality in imaging, dynamics and subtle contrasts that I often prefer it to live (speaker system). Someday maybe someday measurements will be able to tack it down.
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post #15 of 19
5/29/08 at 2:18pm
So, bearing in mind I am no audio engineer, the pico appears to have significantly lower noise floor, and the frequency response between the two amps for all intents and purposes are identical.

ultimately, the pico has a cleaner sound?
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