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Is Balanced Worth It? - Page 2

post #16 of 155
5/12/08 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo View Post
I regret to disagree. We have measured the differences in frequency response, impulse response, distortion and energy storage on the HD600 single ended, compared to balanced (using a RPX-100 balanced amp) using a single ended signal, and the differences were measurable despite the signal not being balanced.
Of course there's some theoretical benefit from using a completely balanced system at the own DAC's level, but it's not really indispensable to have the benefits of driving certain cans on balanced mode.

I agree with Sovkiller, some cans take some profit, or at least measure and sound different balanced compared to SE, but not all cans show those differences, nor are worth the expense in every case.

Rgrds.
Who is we?
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post #17 of 155
5/12/08 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
I disagree. To get the true benefits of balanced drive, your source should be dual differential fully TRUE balanced. A lot of sources that claim balanced output are really only singled ended, that use cheap op-amps as a phase splitter in the output stage to give you a mock inverted signal, to achieve the + and - for the balanced output. A lot of times this actually offers sound quality that is WORSE than the single ended RCA outputs! True balanced sources are balanced from the DAC on, the + and - are created direct from the transport, and then there is a separate DAC for the + and - of each channel (hence the term dual differential).
Any examples of the perpetrators of this heinous crime?
I think it's also a little simplistic to brand opamps as cheap or, by inference, detrimental. Also, it's not a "mock" inverted signal, it is an inverted signal.

Personally I wonder about the perceived benefits of balanced interconnects beyond their actual purpose of facilitating unwanted noise rejection. Surely with headphones it's actually dual-mono anyways?

I'd be more likely to think balanced systems tend to sound better because they usually benefit from at least better cabling, if not simply higher-end gear all round...
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post #18 of 155
5/12/08 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacd lover View Post
Who is we?
It's not that it's your bussiness, less asking in such rude way, but for the readers knowledge, "we" are the audio engineer who's my friend and owns the equipment to measure headphones, speakers, room acoustics, etc. and myself.

Rgrds
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post #19 of 155
5/12/08 at 1:20pm
you don't need measurements to realize that balanced is better than single ended. it is pretty obvious just by listening.
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post #20 of 155
5/12/08 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
you don't need measurements to realize that balanced is better than single ended. it is pretty obvious just by listening.
"better" IMHO is something that is in the ear/brain of the listener. In the case of the HD600 the only measurable difference was in the frequency response, which got more balanced in the low treble by 2-3dB, so objectively it just measures flatter, but this might not be of the liking of some people. On the other measured parameters, they were about the same.
I'm still not sure if I like the HD600 better balanced than SE, sound's different and depending on the recordings, SE is smoother.

Rgrds
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post #21 of 155
5/12/08 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
I disagree. To get the true benefits of balanced drive, your source should be dual differential fully TRUE balanced. A lot of sources that claim balanced output are really only singled ended, that use cheap op-amps as a phase splitter in the output stage to give you a mock inverted signal, to achieve the + and - for the balanced output. A lot of times this actually offers sound quality that is WORSE than the single ended RCA outputs! True balanced sources are balanced from the DAC on, the + and - are created direct from the transport, and then there is a separate DAC for the + and - of each channel (hence the term dual differential).

If your source is not truly balanced, I truly feel you are wasting your money on balanced drive, you are better off getting a very good single ended amp for the money. If your source is truly balanced, the majority of the time you will hear a pretty nice improvement in sound. Specifically, I hear a widening and increase in depth and size of the soundstage plus a much blacker quieter background with less "hash" that previously was over the music.
I have used several amps that produced the inverted signal from an unbalanced input. I can tell you that to me it makes no difference at all compared to the balanced input scenario.
I have a Marantz DA12 dac that has both balanced and unbalanced outputs and a Rudistor RPX-100 that can accept both balanced and unbalanced input.
In both cases the difference between the singele ended and balanced driven HD650s was exactly the same. A considerable benefit.
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post #22 of 155
5/12/08 at 8:04pm
Thread Starter 
From all the posts I think I definitely have to at least LISTEN to a balanced setup. One question is unanswered, is it worth balancing low-cost amps/sources by getting 2x of them, or is it only worth it once you are at a certain level of amplification to begin with?

It seems the benefits are limited almost exclusively to Sennheiser HD-series.
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post #23 of 155
5/12/08 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3_arun View Post
It seems the benefits are limited almost exclusively to Sennheiser HD-series.
i don't think that's the case. ime, all headphones benefit from balanced operation.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/bes...lanced-233986/
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post #24 of 155
5/12/08 at 9:46pm
The easiest way to summarize the Balanced vs. SE improvement is that HD650 > K701 > RS1 for these popular phones. For rarer headphones, who knows where they would fit along the spectrum. I have had the K701 for a couple months, and just got my balanced amp. It's difficult to determine how they scaled because I was coming from a stereo receiver, but I can say that the soundstage is incredibly wide, and that at slightly higher than normal volumes, the bass is phenomenal (impact + definition). When I get my 650 later this week I'll definitely do a comparison between unbalanced/stock cable vs. recabled/balanced

(One thing I can say is that if you are one of those folks who refuses to listen quietly, the balanced K701s will blow your damn mind. I like to do quite listening, which is still quite enjoyable, but when I crank it just a bit, I am floored.)
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post #25 of 155
5/12/08 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3_arun View Post
From all the posts I think I definitely have to at least LISTEN to a balanced setup. One question is unanswered, is it worth balancing low-cost amps/sources by getting 2x of them, or is it only worth it once you are at a certain level of amplification to begin with?

It seems the benefits are limited almost exclusively to Sennheiser HD-series.
I don't quite understand your 1st question - if you could clarify further that would be great.

As for the sennheiser HD series, your statement is not necessarily true. But I believe the majority of the balanced cans out there currently, or at least the majority of balanced can impressions, are of the senn hd 580/600/650 series. They simply are one of the easier cans to make a balanced cable for due to the detachable and DIY nature of the senn plug connectors. Grados for example requires someone skilled enough to open the enclosures and solder onto the solder pads for the + and - of the drivers. I am sure balanced drive can benefit plenty of other cans as well, it just so happens that most of the balanced impressions are going to come from the sennheiser hd camp.
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post #26 of 155
5/12/08 at 9:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
I don't quite understand your 1st question - if you could clarify further that would be great.

As for the sennheiser HD series, your statement is not necessarily true. But I believe the majority of the balanced cans out there currently, or at least the majority of balanced can impressions, are of the senn hd 580/600/650 series. They simply are one of the easier cans to make a balanced cable for due to the detachable and DIY nature of the senn plug connectors. Grados for example requires someone skilled enough to open the enclosures and solder onto the solder pads for the + and - of the drivers. I am sure balanced drive can benefit plenty of other cans as well, it just so happens that most of the balanced impressions are going to come from the sennheiser hd camp.
The ease of replacing Senn cables is certainly a big draw. If you decide to go back to SE, it's cake. Now, it is rare to find a person who reverted back to SE. Still, any aftermarket replacement cable is fairly expensive, although you could find someone to reterminate a stock Senn cable. The point is that if you are frugal, it is possible to balance the 650s for ~$75 or perhaps less.

However, the danger (to your wallet) lies in the fact that if you love balanced operation, the itch to purchase other phones and have them balanced may be irresistible. Such was the draw that without having even heard a balanced amp I dropped close to $2k on amp+recable. And this was to hardwire my K701. If you are immune to sticker shock, balanced is for you. But even with the high costs, balanced gives you big bang for your bucks.
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post #27 of 155
5/12/08 at 11:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
Grados for example requires someone skilled enough to open the enclosures and solder onto the solder pads for the + and - of the drivers.
that's not true. grados, like most headphones other than ATH's, can simply be reterminated to balanced w/o having to do a full recable job. still requires someone with some diy ability though.
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post #28 of 155
5/13/08 at 12:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
As for the sennheiser HD series, your statement is not necessarily true. But I believe the majority of the balanced cans out there currently, or at least the majority of balanced can impressions, are of the senn hd 580/600/650 series. They simply are one of the easier cans to make a balanced cable for due to the detachable and DIY nature of the senn plug connectors.
that i agree with.
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post #29 of 155
5/13/08 at 12:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo View Post
It's not that it's your bussiness, less asking in such rude way, but for the readers knowledge, "we" are the audio engineer who's my friend and owns the equipment to measure headphones, speakers, room acoustics, etc. and myself.

Rgrds
Cool. Would you be kind enough to post it?
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post #30 of 155
5/13/08 at 12:57am
Its not worth it in my opinion. I don't like being limited to certain equipment in order to fully balance. I'm not rich though either
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