Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › Is Balanced Worth It?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Is Balanced Worth It?

post #1 of 155
5/11/08 at 8:36pm
Thread Starter 
Keeping everything the same, but just doubling the components (run the second set with inverted phase). If I got another Scott Nixon USB DAC, another CKKIII, and reterminated my HD580 for balanced, would I see more of a difference than say, getting a 3-channel B22?

Basically, given the same components and the same headphones, and ONLY changing from single-ended to balanced, is there ANY tangible benefit? I am asking because every time I read about this stuff, I keep thinking for some reason that the highest performance is only achievable with balanced configuration, whether it's speakers or headphones. But this is an uninformed opinion, because I have never heard balanced before.
Reply
post #2 of 155
5/11/08 at 8:51pm
To benefit or not from the balanced topology IMO depends mainly on the headphones that you will drive, not all hepadhones benefit the same way from the balanced topology, ones benefit greatly (those not very efficient) other barely benefit (somewhat in the middle) and others is a waste of time and money (case of the very efficient and fast ones)...

What heapdhones do you have in mind?
Reply
post #3 of 155
5/11/08 at 8:55pm
Thread Starter 
I guess I'm talking about HD580, as those are the best headphones I have. Also, from what I've read the Sennheiser HD-series benefit most from balanced setup. But my question is, how much of this is due to just *better* amplification, and how much due to the balancing itself? Would a balanced CMOY be better than single ended, or would it make the flaws of the CMOY more apparent?
Reply
post #4 of 155
5/11/08 at 9:00pm
For the 580/600 and 650, definitelly go balanced if you can...Balanced Cmoy, never heard of such a thing, but what do I know?
Reply
post #5 of 155
5/11/08 at 9:27pm
Well I have a GS-X which has both SE and balanced connectors attached to the same boards (the SE uses 2 boards and the balanced uses 4). The HD650's show large and noticeable benefit to my ears and it's not a matter of better amplification since they are using the same boards.

BTW I'm becoming less of a fan of 650's by the day because of my new Sony SA5000's and my markl mod D5000. Though I'll probably keep them long term because I need a "reference".

Cheers,
Chris
Reply
post #6 of 155
5/11/08 at 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller View Post
To benefit or not from the balanced topology IMO depends mainly on the headphones that you will drive, not all hepadhones benefit the same way from the balanced topology, ones benefit greatly (those not very efficient) other barely benefit (somewhat in the middle) and others is a waste of time and money (case of the very efficient and fast ones)...

What heapdhones do you have in mind?
I disagree. To get the true benefits of balanced drive, your source should be dual differential fully TRUE balanced. A lot of sources that claim balanced output are really only singled ended, that use cheap op-amps as a phase splitter in the output stage to give you a mock inverted signal, to achieve the + and - for the balanced output. A lot of times this actually offers sound quality that is WORSE than the single ended RCA outputs! True balanced sources are balanced from the DAC on, the + and - are created direct from the transport, and then there is a separate DAC for the + and - of each channel (hence the term dual differential).

If your source is not truly balanced, I truly feel you are wasting your money on balanced drive, you are better off getting a very good single ended amp for the money. If your source is truly balanced, the majority of the time you will hear a pretty nice improvement in sound. Specifically, I hear a widening and increase in depth and size of the soundstage plus a much blacker quieter background with less "hash" that previously was over the music.
Reply
post #7 of 155
5/11/08 at 10:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadhead View Post
Well I have a GS-X which has both SE and balanced connectors attached to the same boards (the SE uses 2 boards and the balanced uses 4). The HD650's show large and noticeable benefit to my ears and it's not a matter of better amplification since they are using the same boards.
This is an interesting find. But, I wonder if a 3-channel active ground would provide most of the sonic benefits of a fully balanced? Are you using a balanced source?
Reply
post #8 of 155
5/11/08 at 10:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
I disagree. To get the true benefits of balanced drive, your source should be dual differential fully TRUE balanced. A lot of sources that claim balanced output are really only singled ended, that use cheap op-amps as a phase splitter in the output stage to give you a mock inverted signal, to achieve the + and - for the balanced output. A lot of times this actually offers sound quality that is WORSE than the single ended RCA outputs! True balanced sources are balanced from the DAC on, the + and - are created direct from the transport, and then there is a separate DAC for the + and - of each channel (hence the term dual differential).

If your source is not truly balanced, I truly feel you are wasting your money on balanced drive, you are better off getting a very good single ended amp for the money. If your source is truly balanced, the majority of the time you will hear a pretty nice improvement in sound. Specifically, I hear a widening and increase in depth and size of the soundstage plus a much blacker quieter background with less "hash" that previously was over the music.
What are some examples of balanced sources that use op-amps for phase inversion? Very curious so I can avoid these in the future.

Is there a benefit to having balanced source on its own? I read a thread about using an output transformer for balanced to single ended conversion on the Apogee MiniDAC. Is this a waste of the balanced output, or is there something to be said about differential conversion itself?

Do you hear the benefits you described with all headphones, and how big is the difference using fully balanced source and amp?

Also, would it be OK to use a single ended source with balanced amp as long as the conversion is not done with op amps?
Reply
post #9 of 155
5/11/08 at 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3_arun View Post
This is an interesting find. But, I wonder if a 3-channel active ground would provide most of the sonic benefits of a fully balanced? Are you using a balanced source?
I'm using a Benchmark DAC1 USB which in my understanding is a truly balanced source.

With my other balanced phones (AH-D5000) the benefits of balanced appear to be close to nil. I'm doing a long term comparison right now but initial comparisons using SPL meter matched listening levels are not obvious.

Note that in my case the SE to balanced is using the same source (Balanced XLR from DAC1) and the amp is just taking two of the 4 signals to drive the SE.

I actually have two balanced amps. I have a beta22 as well thought after the mini meet next week it's going up for sale. I thought I'd disclose this just in case I'm accused of having a vested interest in saying balanced is worthwhile which I believe it is.
Reply
post #10 of 155
5/11/08 at 10:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadhead View Post
I'm using a Benchmark DAC1 USB which in my understanding is a truly balanced source.

With my other balanced phones (AH-D5000) the benefits of balanced appear to be close to nil. I'm doing a long term comparison right now but initial comparisons using SPL meter matched listening levels are not obvious.

Note that in my case the SE to balanced is using the same source (Balanced XLR from DAC1) and the amp is just taking two of the 4 signals to drive the SE.

I actually have two balanced amps. I have a beta22 as well thought after the mini meet next week it's going up for sale. I thought I'd disclose this just in case I'm accused of having a vested interest in saying balanced is worthwhile which I believe it is.
I'm assuming this is done with a 1/4 -> XLR adapter to compare the SE output to the balanced? Or else how are you sure that only 2 channels are being used?
Reply
post #11 of 155
5/11/08 at 10:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
I disagree. To get the true benefits of balanced drive, your source should be dual differential fully TRUE balanced. A lot of sources that claim balanced output are really only singled ended, that use cheap op-amps as a phase splitter in the output stage to give you a mock inverted signal, to achieve the + and - for the balanced output. A lot of times this actually offers sound quality that is WORSE than the single ended RCA outputs! True balanced sources are balanced from the DAC on, the + and - are created direct from the transport, and then there is a separate DAC for the + and - of each channel (hence the term dual differential).

If your source is not truly balanced, I truly feel you are wasting your money on balanced drive, you are better off getting a very good single ended amp for the money. If your source is truly balanced, the majority of the time you will hear a pretty nice improvement in sound. Specifically, I hear a widening and increase in depth and size of the soundstage plus a much blacker quieter background with less "hash" that previously was over the music.
Yes, that is a very common practice, unfortunatelly for us. But even while it is true that sometimes the balanced output from many sources, is not trully balanced, for that the DAC should output a balanced signal (not sure how people get it in vinyl rigs then) and indeed sound worst than the SE counterparts, the main benefit you hear from the balanced topology on the headphones, comes for the balanced output, what gives a far better control over the drivers diaphragms, and not from balanced input on the amp, which of course will define maybe the quality of the sound, but not the benefits of the control over the diaphragms you will get.
Reply
post #12 of 155
5/11/08 at 10:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3_arun View Post
I'm assuming this is done with a 1/4 -> XLR adapter to compare the SE output to the balanced? Or else how are you sure that only 2 channels are being used?
The beta22 website describes the wiring here (though my beta unfortunately only has balanced input & output):

The β22 Stereo Amplifier in the other options section

The GS-X does both balanced and SE output to the phones from either a balanced XLR based input or an SE RCA input. The RCA is phase separated using a transformer it appears though I have never used it so I don't have any comment on its abilities.

Cheers,
Chris
Reply
post #13 of 155
5/12/08 at 2:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3_arun View Post
This is an interesting find. But, I wonder if a 3-channel active ground would provide most of the sonic benefits of a fully balanced? Are you using a balanced source?
In B22 case, from what I understand and read, that with better unbalanced DAC and 3ch B22 you will get better SQ than with lesser balanced DAC and 4ch B22. Though I never did comparison it's look very obvious to me.


B22 Rocks!!!! Go for it!
Reply
post #14 of 155
5/12/08 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvs_75 View Post
In B22 case, from what I understand and read, that with better unbalanced DAC and 3ch B22 you will get better SQ than with lesser balanced DAC and 4ch B22. Though I never did comparison it's look very obvious to me.


B22 Rocks!!!! Go for it!
Makes sense to me If you're going to be using a better DAC though balanced is very nice improvement on the Senns.

The active ground does not provide the doubling of slew rate and gain that the balanced setup does all it does is make sure that the crosstalk is a minimized.
Reply
post #15 of 155
5/12/08 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by recstar24 View Post
I disagree. To get the true benefits of balanced drive, your source should be dual differential fully TRUE balanced. A lot of sources that claim balanced output are really only singled ended, that use cheap op-amps as a phase splitter in the output stage to give you a mock inverted signal, to achieve the + and - for the balanced output. A lot of times this actually offers sound quality that is WORSE than the single ended RCA outputs! True balanced sources are balanced from the DAC on, the + and - are created direct from the transport, and then there is a separate DAC for the + and - of each channel (hence the term dual differential).

If your source is not truly balanced, I truly feel you are wasting your money on balanced drive, you are better off getting a very good single ended amp for the money. If your source is truly balanced, the majority of the time you will hear a pretty nice improvement in sound. Specifically, I hear a widening and increase in depth and size of the soundstage plus a much blacker quieter background with less "hash" that previously was over the music.
I regret to disagree. We have measured the differences in frequency response, impulse response, distortion and energy storage on the HD600 single ended, compared to balanced (using a RPX-100 balanced amp) using a single ended signal, and the differences were measurable despite the signal not being balanced.
Of course there's some theoretical benefit from using a completely balanced system at the own DAC's level, but it's not really indispensable to have the benefits of driving certain cans on balanced mode.

I agree with Sovkiller, some cans take some profit, or at least measure and sound different balanced compared to SE, but not all cans show those differences, nor are worth the expense in every case.

Rgrds.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: High-end Audio Forum
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › Is Balanced Worth It?