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Classic Records 200 gram vinyl problems - Page 2

post #16 of 67
5/16/08 at 3:12am
Yeah. 200 gram vinyl has serious quality control issues. 180 gram is a much safer bet but even then you can still catch a bad pressing or two.

I count myself as a lucky one as I have never had a pressing issue with any reissues I have purchased. I do have friends and people I know who have had to send back more than a couple of pressings back due to the noise or a warp.

Vintage vinyl is a better deal for me. Nothing compares to the sound of a shaded dog RCA or a gray label Capitol record in mint condition. Compare a mint condition gray label Frank Sinatra pressing to the modern CD's and you'll see and hear exactly what I am talking about.

Regardless, while new vinyl can have it's problems, most do not. Just depends how much your willing to put up with.

I'd just stay away from the 200 gram pressings.
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post #17 of 67
5/16/08 at 4:07am
Have any of you ordered from TheMusic? I'm curious if the extra couple of bucks per record is made worth it by their "hand-select" process? Are these audible defects usually visual defects as well, or can they go undetected until you play the record?
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post #18 of 67
5/16/08 at 5:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimJo View Post
I have only bought one 200 gram release from Classic Records and it was the 200 gram 45 release of David Crosby - If Only I could Remember My Name. I have to admit that I was expecting to be blown away (especially considering how expensive it was) but I just wasn't that impressed. It was good, but not any better than a good 180 gram release in terms of surface noise. Needless to say, I haven't bought any others.

One thing to note about RTI vs. Classic Records is that I am pretty sure RTI presses the Classic Records releases, so I am not sure what to make out that.

Record Technology Customers

It could just be a production run issue, or who happens to be manning the presses, or the quality of the vinyl pellets used wrt the Classic Records runs. There are a lot of variables out there.

What a beautiful album BTW
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post #19 of 67
5/16/08 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowling-name View Post
Have any of you ordered from TheMusic? I'm curious if the extra couple of bucks per record is made worth it by their "hand-select" process? Are these audible defects usually visual defects as well, or can they go undetected until you play the record?
Hi,

I haven't order from them and did not even know they offered such a service. Sounds interesting and the LPs are only $3 more than buying them elsewhere.

One problem I see however (and to answer your question), excluding warps, all my faulty Classic Records titles have visually appeared flawless. So I guess what you can get out of this service is a guarantee the record was shipped flat and clean. But that does not mean it won't be full of ticks, pops and noise unfortunately.

That said, I might give this service a go just to see what I end up with.
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post #20 of 67
5/17/08 at 7:26pm
I seem to remember reading on the Steve Hoffman forum that Classic Records had temporarily stopped issuing the 200 gram pressings due to the high defect rate discussed in this thread? AFAIK, RTI do the work for them. The general feeling is that the 180g pressings sound just as good and are far more consistent in quality. I only have one RTI pressing, the RHCP 'Stadium Arcadium' set, and it's dead quiet.

Anyways, if there are sonic advantages to be had in 200g pressings, then do further VTA adjustments become a consideration to play them optimally....?

Re: TheMusic.com, I believe they are the retail arm of Classic. The recent Alan Parsons HDAD's could only be bought through them. I haven't bought any of their vinyl so can't comment on the efficacy of the "hand-select" service. But it shows a lack of confidence in QC if this is deemed necessary...

IMO.

Cheers,
Mark
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post #21 of 67
5/17/08 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyMark View Post
I seem to remember reading on the Steve Hoffman forum that Classic Records had temporarily stopped issuing the 200 gram pressings due to the high defect rate discussed in this thread?
I had heard that too, but I can tell you that I have just purchased a brand new Everest release from Classic (released to retail only in the last couple of weeks) that is a new 200 gram pressing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyMark View Post
Anyways, if there are sonic advantages to be had in 200g pressings, then do further VTA adjustments become a consideration to play them optimally....?
In my opinion fine VTA adjustments are often over-rated and in many cases its a placebo effect. Even just to change my VTA by a degree or two requires a pretty hefty shift in the tonearm height - way more than a similar effect caused by a change in record thickness. I have mine set for 180 gram LPs and it plays the 200 gram ones just fine. Putting on a 200 gram LP changes the VTA to such a small extent I am barely able to measure the difference visually and can barely even detect - if at all - the slightest change in imtermodulation distortion figures in my DAW (actually that is how I adjusted the VTA in the first place, since I could not convince myself I was really hearing any differences that could not be attributed to a placebo effect). I suppose if people believe that adjusting VTA on the fly every time they change from 180 gram to 200 gram matters, then they can knock themselves out fiddling with their tonearm all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyMark View Post
Re: TheMusic.com, I believe they are the retail arm of Classic. The recent Alan Parsons HDAD's could only be bought through them. I haven't bought any of their vinyl so can't comment on the efficacy of the "hand-select" service. But it shows a lack of confidence in QC if this is deemed necessary...
Agreed. And what happens to the "rejects"? Anyway, my confidence is further eroded when they refer to an article which mentions that cleaning new records removes mold release agents. And since neither RTA nor Pallas actually use any mold release agents, the utter sceptic in me has me wondering about it all. But at least the service is optional. Infact I no longer believe in cleaning new records at all. Just brush 'em and put 'em down on the turntable. It seems the best that one will ever achieve through cleaning a brand new RTI or Pallas release is reduced static due to having saturated the record. These stories about muck in the grooves and mold release compound are just garbage regurgitated by old-timer know-it-all vinyl die-hards who think that their 30 year old knowledge somehow still has relevance today. As a high ranking vinyl industry person said to me late last year, there is absolutely no, valid reason to clean a new, modern audiophile Pallas or RTI pressing manufactured today and that doing so is just falling victim to the advertising propaganda of those who sell record cleaning solutions and gadgets for a living.
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post #22 of 67
5/18/08 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowling-name View Post
Have any of you ordered from TheMusic? I'm curious if the extra couple of bucks per record is made worth it by their "hand-select" process? Are these audible defects usually visual defects as well, or can they go undetected until you play the record?
Wish I had seen this service, I bought a 200g classic Who record from themusic.com the sound quality was great but half the label was missing on one side of the record.

I sent about 10 emails to themusic.com without a reply. I sent one to classic records direct and they sent me out a new disc. I,ve never used themusic.com since.
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post #23 of 67
5/18/08 at 1:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADD View Post
Anyway, my confidence is further eroded when they refer to an article which mentions that cleaning new records removes mold release agents. And since neither RTA nor Pallas actually use any mold release agents, the utter sceptic in me has me wondering about it all. But at least the service is optional. Infact I no longer believe in cleaning new records at all. Just brush 'em and put 'em down on the turntable. It seems the best that one will ever achieve through cleaning a brand new RTI or Pallas release is reduced static due to having saturated the record. These stories about muck in the grooves and mold release compound are just garbage regurgitated by old-timer know-it-all vinyl die-hards who think that their 30 year old knowledge somehow still has relevance today. As a high ranking vinyl industry person said to me late last year, there is absolutely no, valid reason to clean a new, modern audiophile Pallas or RTI pressing manufactured today and that doing so is just falling victim to the advertising propaganda of those who sell record cleaning solutions and gadgets for a living.
This level of "QA" being offered by dealers should be completely unnecessary. Quality control is the responsibility of the label and should be taking place long before the vinyl ever shows up at a dealer. And it certainly shouldn't be done at additional cost to the customer. Audiophiles are plunking down damned good money for these things and they have every right to demand the quality they are paying for.

So what sort of failure rate is acceptable? Up until recently, for me it has been somewhere in the vicinity of about 2% for new vinyl pressings. I consider that acceptable. But lately I have had the following experiences: an order of 10 albums shows up and 4 of them have to go back due to physical defects. Another order of 8 albums arrives and 5 of them end up defective. A third order from last month of 18 albums comes in and 5 of them are bad. What brands? All of them are either Classic Records 200 gram or Analog Productions 180 gram pressings.

I have already spoken to the two dealers involved and they have stepped up to the plate and are replacing all of these bad albums. But I don't want in-home QA checking of vinyl to become a second job for me. I don't have that kind of free time on my hands. Sometimes it will be a month or two before I have a chance to play a record. This happened to me about three months ago with a copy of Jimi Hendrix Live at the Fillmore East double LP that I bought from the Authentic Hendrix website. Track 1 on side 2 of the first LP had a locked groove. I called the Hendrix folks and they said I had to eat it because it was over 30 days. Since I have purchased every single Hendrix release on vinyl from their website one might have thought that they might be able to see that I was not trying to screw them out of an album. I have never asked for a replacement until then. They kindly said there was nothing they could do for me. At least they did replace the Classic Records 200g set of Live at Woodstock for me when it arrived and two of the LPs had scratches all over them right out of the box.

I also agree with not cleaning new records in a RCM. All I do is hit them with an Audioquest carbon fibre brush and on to the turntable they go. I will only run them through my VPI record cleaning machine if I think there are problems with the record. I will at least clean the album and try playing again before reaching out to the dealer for a replacement.

--Jerome
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post #24 of 67
5/18/08 at 2:50pm
Thread Starter 
I just threw another brand new Classic Records 200 gram pressing of Jascha Heifetz's Mendelssholn/Prokofiev Concertos in the trash. Purchased two months ago and just played it today. And if any of you are wondering what the problem is, here is a sample of the junk that is coming out of RTI and Classic Records that audiophiles are paying good money for.

Sample of Classic Records Poor Quality on 200 Gram Vinyl

I would rather see Classic Records and RTI go out of business then give either of them another red cent of my disposable income.

I wouldn't mind eating an occasional loss because I don't always have the time to QA check these records. But the rejection rate of stuff that has been coming to my home is so damned high that this is a luxury that I can no longer afford.

I have sent several emails to Classic Records and not a peep out them. Whenever I am in an online discussion about Classic Records I am going to link people to this thread and the sample that is up on my website. I've had it.

--Jerome
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post #25 of 67
5/18/08 at 3:27pm
Thread Starter 
Still not convinced? Here is another one I just opened of Heifetz's Brusch Scottish Fantasy. Also just thrown in the trash.

More Shoddy Quality from Classic Records

Consider yourself warned. Today I lost about $100 on bad vinyl from Classic Records, which brings the total to something like $300 or so for me.

--Jerome
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post #26 of 67
5/18/08 at 7:50pm
Instead of throwing them away, you could donate them to needy Head-Fi members who don't care about bad pressings.
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post #27 of 67
5/19/08 at 1:21am
OK, they are pretty bad examples for ticks, but in his disgust, Jerome has not even touched on the full repertoire of a faulty (or is that normal?) 200 gram Quiex SV-P flat pressing. What is missing here for the uninitiated are:

the "who dragged my record through the sand at the beach?" sound...

the "is that a cyclone in the distance?" sound...(alternatively known as the "I did not know the traditional orchestration of this piece of music included a wind machine") sound...

the "is that coming from my record or is my plumbing playing up again?" sound...

and my personal favourite:

the "26 minutes worth of a hundred clicks every 1.8 seconds" sound.

Anyway, the question needs to be asked again. I assume these are all flat pressings. I haven't gotten a troublesome lipped pressing yet. I should also add that I have bought nearly all the classical Cisco releases - these are all pressed by RTI in exactly the same style as the new lipped Classic pressings, but the vinyl forumation and weight are obviously different (Cisco being 180 gram). All my Ciscos have been as flawless as one could expect from vinyl as well. Here is hoping for a better 200 gram future with Classic.

I think what would be interesting to hear now are people having problems with the 200 gram lipped Classic Records pressings unless Jerome has sent back some of them too.
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post #28 of 67
5/19/08 at 4:04pm
I think the whole world is de-evolving back to the stone age. We get charged more for what used to be a given, and even then, it's not as good as it used to be. Perhaps computers make up for all this, but I'm not sure...

See ya
Steve
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post #29 of 67
5/20/08 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I think the whole world is de-evolving back to the stone age. We get charged more for what used to be a given, and even then, it's not as good as it used to be. Perhaps computers make up for all this, but I'm not sure...

See ya
Steve
That's a very deep and meaningful comment from you Bigshot. It's not often we see you wax lyrical about life, the universe and everything Anyway I will tell you what peeves me no end. People who buy absolutely flawless audiophile vinyl (by their own admission) and still spend 90% of their time whinging about the prices and 10% of their time being thankful that they can still buy their new vinyl at all.

I stil remember when CDs first came out in Australia and I was paying $28 each for them. And now 25 years later I am paying $29.95 for an audiophile-mastered LP (and a dubiously-mastered CD from an Australian store will still cost me the same as buying the audiophile-quality mastered LP from the States).
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post #30 of 67
5/20/08 at 7:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADD View Post
I think what would be interesting to hear now are people having problems with the 200 gram lipped Classic Records pressings unless Jerome has sent back some of them too.
I haven't had to send any of the lipped pressings back, but to be honest I don't have enough of them to make an assessment. But I think it is fair to say that once bitten, twice shy. So regardless of whether or not the lipped pressings solve the earlier quality problems, at this point I simply don't trust Classic Records. It's a pity too, because they have a lot of titles in their catalog that I would love to buy. Tons of Blue Note jazz titles specifically. But I have decided to sit it out for at least a year. In that time I will follow the forums and try to determine wether or not the quality has in fact improved. It's also too bad for Classic Records, since in that time they might have drummed up a few thousand dollars in purchases from me.

Meanwhile I continue to be very impressed by Speakers Corner and other pressings of audiophile vinyl and will continue to support them as long as the quality level remains high, the rejection rate low, and the selection good.

--Jerome
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