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Midrange DAC - how much should I spend?

post #1 of 48
4/23/08 at 8:21pm
Thread Starter 
Hey there Head-Fi.

Right now I'm in the process of building an audiophile system, based on my taste, piece by piece. I've done a ton of research on headphones, and then amplifiers: I've made my decisions and purchased a pair of K701s to pair with a Triad Audio Lisa III XP.

The setup sounds amazing using the line out of my dad's high-end CD player as a source (in the living room). The problem is, I can't always listen to my music out there, and a CD player isn't really my preferred source anyway. I'd really like to be able to use my iMac w/ iTunes as a source. So I'm now on the hunt for a DAC.

My question is, what should I expect to have to spend if I want something that will act as a suitably high-quality source for my current amp/headphone pair? Money is something that I don't exactly have endless quantities of right now. Although I'd rather save up for a little while to buy something nicer, rather than buy something really cheap and have it not be "enough".

The Apogee Duet is supposed to have a really good bang/buck ratio (according to what I've read on Head-Fi, anyway). But it is ~$500, and it seems like it'd be stretching it to spend 500 bucks.

If anyone has some reviews of midrange DACs that they could link me to, that would be cool as well...

Any thoughts/advice/recommendations are really appreciated!!

Peace and love,
dgm
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post #2 of 48
4/24/08 at 5:03am
Perhaps an Oritek modded Zhalou or Channel Islands VDA-2. If you're into DIY, you could also try the EzDAC or Twisted Pear Opus, which is modular and allows you to spend as much/little as you need.
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post #3 of 48
4/24/08 at 5:14am
I am partial to Scott Nixon's USB NOS DAC designs. I think the JFET buffered USB version is $350.
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post #4 of 48
4/24/08 at 9:45am
heheh... Mid-fi I was thinking in the range of $2~3k (at least that's what I'm going to spend next time I upgrade my source) but after reading your post and seeing this is your first DAC I think you are looking in the right area (sub $500). Lots of good choices but if you save to just a little more, then you can look into the DA10 vs DAC1 vs stello DA110S - which is a never ending debate here on head-fi - all with hi-fi cred.
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post #5 of 48
4/25/08 at 2:55pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks a bunch for the advice so far folks... I looked into the Oritek Zhaolu and the CI VDA-2, as you suggested 1UP. The reviews of the Oritek make it sound pretty attractive to me... right now I'm leaning toward it.

I don't think that at this time I want to spend money on the likes of a Benchmark/Lavry/Stello. Although if someone told me that it was truly worth it, and that it was pointless to have anything less, then I might make the financial commitment.
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post #6 of 48
4/25/08 at 7:37pm
You may find this thread of interest - strong thumbs up for the DIY Opus, but also the Oritek Zhalou.
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post #7 of 48
4/25/08 at 10:46pm
Another one to look at is the Stello DA100, which is supposedly equal in sound quality out of the SE outputs to the Stello DA220, which in turn rivals Lavry/Benchmark units. Its around $700, but for a big step up you would probably have to spend >$1500.
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post #8 of 48
9/6/08 at 12:14am
Thread Starter 
Decision MADE!

Bought an Oritek. Very pleased with the transaction and customer service I might add as well.

I've been testing it out today, listening to some of my favorite high sound quality tracks. The sound is super transparent, first of all. I can hear a lot of detail, and instruments are well separated. Bass is smooth, just enough of it. Overall obviously a really high fidelity signal.

My only qualm so far, though, is the harshness. Apart from straight out of my iMac, this is the most fatiguing sound I've heard from my K701s, which is obviously disappointing, and somewhat surprising considering the liquidy warmth of my current amp. I can turn the volume down to a point at which I can hear the music, and it's not harsh or fatiguing, but it's below my desired listening level, and the music loses its liveliness at that low volume. I can't really pick out what is so harsh about the sound, but it just has this gratingness to it (maybe too much high frequency sound?).

Right now I'm using the power cord that came with the unit, which is non-shielded. Will getting at least a basic shielded cord alleviate this quality of the signal? Or is it just burn in? Any tips are appreciated.

Peace and love,
dgm.
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post #9 of 48
9/6/08 at 4:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgm View Post
Decision MADE!

Bought an Oritek. Very pleased with the transaction and customer service I might add as well.

My only qualm so far, though, is the harshness. Apart from straight out of my iMac, this is the most fatiguing sound I've heard from my K701s, which is obviously disappointing, and somewhat surprising considering the liquidy warmth of my current amp. I can turn the volume down to a point at which I can hear the music, and it's not harsh or fatiguing, but it's below my desired listening level, and the music loses its liveliness at that low volume. I can't really pick out what is so harsh about the sound, but it just has this gratingness to it (maybe too much high frequency sound?).
Like many 1st time buyers, you started at a price point based on the assumption that anything cheaper must be inferior. Cost is just a number quoted in $$. Performance is done by one's ears, and they are priceless. The Zero DAC at a mere fraction of your outlay would have been a quite pleasant revelation, with a massively long thread in another head-fi section dedicated to it. Your ears and K701 would have thanked you for at least giving the Zero DAC a try, even if you are biased against paying less for more.
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post #10 of 48
9/6/08 at 4:13am
<Moderator Edit> Unfortunately, sometimes more capable sources can reveal nasty mixes in your source material - this is kind of inescapable in a lot of modern recordings. That isn't to say there may be a synergy mismatch here, but it's more often the amp-headphone that is the main factor and the DAC probably just needs more time to burn in.

Consider changing the analogue IC before the power cord, though. Van den Hul D102MKIII and Supra EFF-I are very smooth sounding cables.

What was your dad's CDP as reference?
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post #11 of 48
9/6/08 at 4:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1UP View Post
<Moderator Edit> Unfortunately, sometimes more capable sources can reveal nasty mixes in your source material - this is kind of inescapable in a lot of modern recordings. That isn't to say there may be a synergy mismatch here, but it's more often the amp-headphone that is the main factor and the DAC probably just needs more time to burn in.

Consider changing the analogue IC before the power cord, though. Van den Hul D102MKIII and Supra EFF-I are very smooth sounding cables.

What was your dad's CDP as reference?
Excuses, excuses. Blame the messenger, blame the source, blame the source material, blame the cables in use. Next, blame the electricity supply. But never blame the performance of your choice of purchase, even when anyone agrees with your disappointing findings.
If you have to put your trust in 1UP, you better go and find another $1K or more to rectify the errors in your system before you get your recent purchase to sound good. I bet you that was not part of your plans when you first set out to get a DAC, and neither would I have expected that.
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post #12 of 48
9/6/08 at 8:35am
I'm offering him options, suggestions, possibilities to help him, the first of which - giving the unit time to burn in - costs nothing.

<Moderator Edit>

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/ori...29/index3.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/not...elling-283931/
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/ber...29/index2.html
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post #13 of 48
9/6/08 at 8:44am
Somewhat off topic but when I saw the original post I had in mind a "midrange" non-portable price of $3000 ish. That would put you squarely in range of Bel Canto DAC 3. But, one DAC I'm very interested in trying/auditioning is the Red Wine Audio Isabella. I just wish it had balanced output like every other DAC at the price point e.g., Bel Canto, Benchmark, Apogee, etc.
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post #14 of 48
9/6/08 at 9:23am
Don't listen to that cheerleader 1Up (just kidding...). I suspect that burn in won't change it that much, but it's worth a try. Changing ICs and power cords won't do it either. These are minor tweaks, at best, not character-changing. If anything, better cabling will let more high-frequency information through. This will not mitigate "harsh." Leave it on for a couple of nights. Don't listen in the meantime. Then plug back in. If it still is harsh, send it back. If you have to turn down your music to listen to it comfortably, it is simply the wrong DAC for your set up, period.

Personally, I'd order an Apogee Duet from someone with a good return policy and compare it with the Lisa, and I'd probably end up selling the Lisa. The problem with the Duet isn't that it is too expensive, it's a great bargain. But you're paying not only for the DAC, but for a transportable amp as well. See if that amp is as good as the one you have. If it is, you get it all in one box and recover some of your investment by selling the Lisa.

Another, far less expensive option (like, free): Have you tried optical out of your Mac Book directly into the Lisa? You might be surprised at the quality of audio in your Mac once you bi-pass it's amp. If all of those options are still harsh, I'd consider selling the K701s and looking at Senns. They are much smoother and warmer. Not quite as revealing, but some people find them much smoother and easier to listen to.

Tim
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post #15 of 48
9/6/08 at 10:09am
I think it would be worth a weekend of burn-in (50-100 hours) just to see if it helps.
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