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Burning in? - Page 3

post #31 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by elnero
And to add to the car analogy a lot of audio manufacturers specify a certain period of time for burn in or often do a period of burn in themselves before the product ever leaves the building. When I worked for Swans Speakers we burned each set in for 24 hours before they ever left the factory. We felt they still got better with more time but that was not feasible, we got them over the initial hump though.

Also Mike, I'll reiterate. Your trolling looking for an argument here as you do in many threads. **** happens in threads on occasion and they get off track but you blatantly seem to be looking for arguments all the time. Nothing you have stated has anything to do with what SageOHaze asked. No where did I see SageOHaze ask "does burn in work?" or anything remotely close. If you want to start a debate on this why not start your own thread instead of ruining someone elses?
I'm not ruining it. A lot of presumptions are being made that lack foundation. A car is not the same as a headphone.or a shoe. Any break-in that happens on a headphone or cable is trivial, and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.
post #32 of 265
The only reason there is even an argument is because you trolled your way in here looking to start one. If the discussion had stayed on track to what SageOHaze had asked these "presumptions" as you call them would never have been made in the first place.
post #33 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by elnero
The only reason there is even an argument is because you trolled your way in here looking to start one. If the discussion had stayed on track to what SageOHaze had asked these "presumptions" as you call them would never have been made in the first place.
He said "I have some questions about burning in". I simply wish to point out that this PRESUMES that such a phenomenon exists, and that the only foundation for it is the assertion of some people in this group. If it happens anyway, just from use, why even talk about it? In that case, it cannot be avoided. To make a blanket assertion that all headphones require burn-in before use is completely preposterous, and it's not "ruining the thread" to point that out. It's a perfectly legitimate extension iof the topic. Until someone conducts a double-blind test with some measurable difference between a burned-in and factory-fresh headphones, the phenomenon must be considered non-existent. It's up to YOU to prove it exists, not me to prove it doesn't, just as it's not up to me to prove you WERE NOT abducted by aliens last night and replaced by an identical substitute having all your memories. Can you PROVE you were not? Of course not! It's the same here. The burden of proof is on those who claim the phenomenon exists, not those who are skeptical about it. Do you understand this?
post #34 of 265
The question was "I have some questions about burning in" followed by questions on the process and the proper way to burn in a piece of audio equipment. Nowhere was it asked "Does burn in really happen".

Burn in is generally accepted in the audio world not just by a few members here at Head-Fi. The non-believers are the minority by far. In some cases burn in effects are even measurable like in the case of drivers. Just because you can't hear it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Some people can't tell the differences between amplifiers, that doesn't mean there aren't any, it's just that they can't hear them.

So no, I don't see where your personal judgement trying to refute accepted practice through arrogant posts has any relevence to the original questions asked in this thread other than to try and start an argument. An argument which you've already had on numerous occasions I might add. As an example here is one such debate and believe the final post by JaZZ sums things up pretty well.
post #35 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by elnero
The question was "I have some questions about burning in" followed by questions on the process and the proper way to burn in a piece of audio equipment. Nowhere was it asked "Does burn in really happen".

Burn in is generally accepted in the audio world not just by a few members here at Head-Fi.
He doesn't KNOW that, but HAS BEEN TOLD that by some people here. I'm here to disabuse him of the notion. Any effect must be trivial, because OTHERWISE THE DAMNED THINGS WOULD NOT WORK! The suspension and tolerances in manufacture are very tight, and for them to change as significantly as you claim would cause them to stop working or grossly malfunction. IT'S ALL PSYCHOLOGICAL!

"Burn in is generally accepted in the audio world not just by a few members here at Head-Fi." you say. Nonsense. Anyone who claims that headphones must be burned in must provide some evidence to support that claim.

Of course I can hear diffrences bewteen amplifiers and cables, and I do so quite easily. There are sound reasons for this, as there are physical differences between products. To claim that headphones somehow transform themselves from sounding like 'crap' to sounding 'sweet' without significant physical changes that would jeapordize their functionality defies belief. It's an extraordinary claim, and as such requires extraordinary evidence. You're deluding yourselves.
post #36 of 265
The only real way to test this would be to buy two identical headphones (I'd suggest something like the HD600's, as I have experienced marked burnin with these phones, as have MANY others) - burn one in for a while.. (a week, a month, whatever), and keep one fresh in box. Compare. If I had the disposable income to do it, I'd do it myself. (then sell both pairs again). Another option would be for someone with an already well used pair to buy a brand new one, and compare those. Still couldn't justify spending $250 to prove a point

-dd3mon
post #37 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by dd3mon
The only real way to test this... would be for someone with an already well used pair to buy a brand new one, and compare those. Still couldn't justify spending $250 to prove a point

-dd3mon
BLIND test. Blindfolded, no clue as to which one's which. Tell them apart if you can!
post #38 of 265
Quote:
"Burn in is generally accepted in the audio world not just by a few members here at Head-Fi." you say. Nonsense. Anyone who claims that headphones must be burned in must provide some evidence to support that claim.
Somewhere along the way, the idea of burning-in got whacked.

In both audio and video (production/repair), equipment is burned in prior to final calibration and it's performance verified against specifications.

I'm not one to crap on other peoples rituals, so if it brings you pleasure to 'control' your virginal gear, do it by all means. No harm will come of it.

When I get new (generally used) gear, it's not uncommon to run it through its paces on a test bench before placing it into my system.

Point in case, I'm currently modding a 20 year old preamp, damned if it's going into the rack before I confirm that it's not leaking DC or somehow fubar'ed after sitting in a closet for 18 years.

After shaking it out, in it goes and then I get to start hearing it.

Don't ya know....it's sounding better and better. Hmm perhaps I am getting used to it's sound and it's doing the same thing the same way it did all those years ago.

ciao for now,
Andrew
post #39 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by AndrewB
Somewhere along the way, the idea of burning-in got whacked.

In both audio and video (production/repair), equipment is burned in prior to final calibration and it's performance verified against specifications.
Given that temperatures rise significantly in amps, and that temperature changes can affect the electrical (and thus sonic) characteristics of transistors and tubes, as well as other parts, this is sensible. It does not apply to headphones except trivially, because any change in temperature significant enough to change them sonically (that would be caused by electrical current passing through them) would melt the coils. It would also disappear between uses.
post #40 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Scarpitti
The suspension and tolerances in manufacture are very tight, and for them to change as significantly as you claim would cause them to stop working or grossly malfunction. IT'S ALL PSYCHOLOGICAL!
Mike, that's all just hot air you're blowing out. It clearly shows your lack of knowledge, compensated by as bigger a mouth... It's accepted, proven by measurements and agreed by manufacturers, that mechanical and electrical burn-in do happen in the real world. You can read about it in various books for speaker DIY amateurs. Moreover you can hear it by yourself, just by acquiring a pair of quality dynamic headphones, preferably some HD 600 where the effect can't be denied even by a stubborn non-believer like you. I have offered you some links to the subject which clearly prove the burn-in effect, and my own measurements. Moreover there are enough physical reasons for burn-in to at least leave it open. I just can't reproduce your attitude, but tend to rate it as religious blindness, like the one you already showed in that one infamous thread...

Quote:
Anyone who claims that headphones must be burned in must provide some evidence to support that claim.
It's been done, you just don't care. BTW nobody claims that headphones «must» be burned in. It's all up to you.

post #41 of 265
Hey Mike, since you're so gung-ho about the non-existence of burn-in, why don't you go out and blow some cash proving us wrong? We're all as broke as you are.
As for HD600's being the testbed, I've never heard them, so I wouldn't know, but 280 Pro's change so much, it's not even funny. The bass improves, the mid smooths out, and the treble is less harsh.
And Mike, why is it that a cable may burn-in, according to you, but a headphone driver may not? Why does one chunk of metal sound better than the other with time?
As for the car analogy, it's just a way of showing you that since most everything else improves with time, why shouldn't headphones? Cars get better performance after a thousand or so miles, shoes get more comfortable with time, wine and cheese taste better, guitar strings improve...

(-:Stephonovich:-)
post #42 of 265
Mike,

Didn't some one get nailed to a tree a couple thousand years ago, for pointing out the obvious???

If folk believe they believe, no measuring or quantifing will change their opinion.

Besides you might be wrong? maybe? Naw didn't think so.
post #43 of 265

Hoo boy...

Excellent point, Andrew. I'm sure the resident troll will find something to rant about, however.
You know, why don't you join the leagues of AC's on /. ?

(-:Stephonovich:-)
post #44 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by Stephonovich
Hey Mike, since you're so gung-ho about the non-existence of burn-in, why don't you go out and blow some cash proving us wrong? We're all as broke as you are.
As for HD600's being the testbed, I've never heard them, so I wouldn't know, but 280 Pro's change so much, it's not even funny. The bass improves, the mid smooths out, and the treble is less harsh.
And Mike, why is it that a cable may burn-in, according to you, but a headphone driver may not? Why does one chunk of metal sound better than the other with time?
As for the car analogy, it's just a way of showing you that since most everything else improves with time, why shouldn't headphones? Cars get better performance after a thousand or so miles, shoes get more comfortable with time, wine and cheese taste better, guitar strings improve...

(-:Stephonovich:-)

I made it QUITE CLEAR that the burden of proof is on YOU. Do you understand why that is?

The instances you mention above have well-understodd mechanisms. I do not claim that burn-in is impossible, but that no convincing mechanism has been proposed or cited for it, and that any mechanism I can think of would damage or destroy them.
post #45 of 265
Quote:
Originally posted by Stephonovich

And Mike, why is it that a cable may burn-in, according to you, but a headphone driver may not? Why does one chunk of metal sound better than the other with time?

(-:Stephonovich:-)
I never said that about cables. I was referring to amplifiers. Amplifiers heat up and cool down. Parts expandwith heat, and contract when the unit cools again. Any change that occurs as a result of the heating would disappear after the unit is allowed to cool, and reappear when heated again. As far as permanent changes are concerned, tubes, transistors and other parts age from this heat (their materials break down) over long periods of time and the sound could conceivably change slightly until failure occurs. (But it's not necessarily the sort of 'improvement' that happens in a few hours that you ascribe to headphones.) They get hot. They cool down. They age. That's it. Cables, on the other hand, don't have as much change from heating, and although there could be some, it would be trivial.

There is no mechanism that would 'optimize' headphones as you describe it. Any significant change would be properly termed 'damage'.
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