Balanced vs. Unbalanced for K701 - Page 2

Hey, man! Nice to hear from you!

No, there's not much new coming up in the headphone amp domain. Nose is stirring the pot here; I love it, but he doesn't know of what he speaks.

Don't be surprised, there's no ruckus raised because there's no surprises in store. Jorge has got it, at the moment it's all about getting the word out on the Desktop Audiophile system.

But wait, WTF, I might as well begin to dial the notch up a bit for the way down the road. Jorge, Ben, Jeremy, and I got to listen to a new DAC chip the other day. Joe (our engineer) put together and eval kit from a specialty DAC maker. I'm not even going to say whome yet. But it SLAYED.

Here's the bad news: it's not going to show up for a good long while on our internal DAC board options, but, as you may have read elsewhere, I'm thinking it might show up one of these days in a stand-alone DAC.

Actually, I'm more than thinking.

.

Thanks Tyll.


Where's the drool smile?

Joe is the man! He's always got something good cooking back there, silicon or thai, I'm not sure.

Oh! Sorry about that OT comment ... back to the OP. Jamey and Jorge have rightfully commented that the Balanced Desktop edges out the Pimped Desktop. I'll weigh in with that if it were me, I'd take the flexibility and greater switching functions of the Unbalanced Desktop.

I sit at a desk with that Desktop Audiophile System every day and while I luvs my headphones, I use the speakers mostly. When I want total intimacy and detail, I put on the cans; but normally I want the impact and imaging that speakers can give me.

Am I pitching the new Power Amps and Speaker Stand? Well ... yeah, but only because I friggen love mine and think you 're likely to love it too. Do I think Jamey or Jorge got it wrong? No way, balanced headphones are really pretty amazing. What should you think? You have to think about what you'd prefer: exquisite sound with some limited functionality, or great sound on any headphone, speaker, or source you want to plug into and switch between.

Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnd! Looks like Jamey burned his first post in this thread. Ah ... sorry about your wallet!? (See me and we'll work something out. )

You make a very good point Tyll. The Audiophile Desktop System makes for a pretty sleek kit. The Desktop Balanced is lacking a couple of key features that would make it more suitable for a complete system but the sound is some of the best I've heard for a fraction of the price. I don't think I've ever heard a speaker system sound that good. Again though, I hear your point about the convenience of a well integrated audio system. It allows you to listen to the music instead of messing with the gear.

Any chance you could squeeze a little more into that Desktop Balanced?

Dood, if it coulda been done, YOU woulda done it.

edit - I should say if it could have been done at the time. We will eventually put it all in one box; but as you well know, this work takes the patience of a saint.

The biggest improvement I have seen in the 701's is doing a dual entry recable. After that balancing does further improve the issue. If you are thinking of just an amp then I would go with the balanced desktop (with Tyll's proviso that it does not have preamp capability). If you are looking for a one box solution of amp and DAC then you will have to weigh the differences between a home balanced or a singe-ended max DAC. I am weighing those same tradeoffs myself.

thanks for the input/yet another question

I have asked for opinions about things I have no way to experience for myself and people have responded. I am grateful for the input on the pimped-out desktop vs balanced desktop that I have been wrestling with. I am leaning toward the balanced unit.

This question is probably for Jorge but also for anyone who has any knowledge of it. As I understand it the ultra micro dac is, give or take a little, the max dac module in a small free-standing unit. If I were to buy a balanced desktop amp sans dac, and the ultra micro, I could use the two together to get a balanced ouput for headphones (because the balanced desktop converts unbalanced analog signals to balanced).

Now my question, which again asks for an opinion. Would the sound of this combination be an improvement over the home dac module installed in a balanced amp? (I do love the simplicity of one unit, but I would forgo that for a palpable sonic improvement.)

Thanks.

would one not have to also consider the signal path between two separate components also when comparing a single box to a multi-box setup? i.e. how nice of a cable would be used, how long, and what is the environment
this cable is exposed too? i'm thinking the level of difference that might be gained could be small enough to be lost or at least degraded by connection
if not done correctly vs. the short controlled signal path in a one piece design... or maybe no....

i've wondered why headroom shows mostly 1/8 to 1/8 connections from the headphone jack to their mobile amps rather than line out setups... like in the bag setup pages and such. and they offer a selection of cables for this but not much in the way of line out stuff. not that they dont clearly state line out is better.

but surely there could be a low profile right angle dock port connection cable that was short and ended in an 1/8 plug just to be used with their bags and stuff. some people [myself included] pay good money for these cables too.

and was connector made just for an ipod? meaning i cant buy that connector and use it to make my own product, like i could with say an 1/8" jack. or did apple choose a stock item like the honda connector? because if that connector isn't some special apple only thing like the mag-safe stuff how can the made for ipod clause apply to cables any more than it does to headphones with 1/8" plugs? surely the idea of plugging something in wasnt patented by apple.... obviously i am missing something there.

This is a bit complicated but ...

The DAC inside the Balanced Desktop has 4 DACs. Two for each channel, one putting out a normal audio signal and the other putting out the inverted version of that channel. Using two DACs to create the two balanced drive signals ensures that they are perfectly (or very close) mirror images of each other. When you go through the unbalanced input of the Desktop Balanced, you go through what's called a 'phase splitter' that creates the inverted signal. Now we use a very good chip for this, but the inverted signal created is not as perfect a mirror image signal created by a DAC.

So, if you fed an Ultra Micro DAC signal into the unbalanced input of a Balanced Desktop you do get a slight degredation from the phase splitter. My guess is that it won't be quite as good as using the internal DACs of the Balanced Desktop.

The extra cabling will give you a small performance hit, but I doubt you could tell much as the cables are so short.

I'd go with the internal DAC of the Balanced Desktop if that's the direction you're leaning.

...or you could just get the home balanced amp and all your probs would be solved...

I'm sort of kidding though...I know it's a lot bigger and more expensive.

Groan! Would you believe that in a moment of rapturous fiscal irresponsibility, I considered it....it has preamp options, which I like and enough connections to throw a headphile party... But we're talking about 4000$ by the time I add the AKGS and the new cable for the Senns and the DSP.

I have considered some other options in the under 3000 area. When I considered buying tubes, I looked in Audiogon at used Cary 300 SEIs and and at the John Woo 300B 2-Chassis job. A couple of times I was hot to order but certain considerations stopped me.

First of all, much as I like tubes, they are a pain in the ass. I've heard some great solid state stuff and no longer think tubes are essential for great sound. Secondly, I am really caught up in the desire to experience balanced headphones, and I sincerely hope that that experience will be as great as I am told it is.

Last is size! The 300B tube jobs weigh a ton and I live and work in Saudi Arabia. The idea of transporting them here and ultimately back to the states is daunting, but not nearly so much as the idea of needing servicing; they would have to be shipped out.

The headroom home, to be sure, is not nearly as much of a problem. But when I think of the desktop, with all the reputed headphone savvy built in, but with a 6" footprint and light weight, and able to be transported in a carryon, I smile.

So probably no headroom home at least until I am "home". As for a headphile party, I may be the only one in SA anyway. And as I listen to people in this forum and read and reread some reviews, I think the desktop balanced may be the "balanced" choice.

I have two months to play with this and learn more. I will be returning to the US mid june for almost 4 months. It seems the perfect time to buy and save overseas shipping mishegass, and offers an easy return in case, to quote the Headroom website, I "didn't quite get the perfect item the first time around."

Thanks again.

and speakers, I forgot about the speakers. which speakers are yawl looking to sale?

last year when Tyll was asking us about what features we would like to see on a upgraded Desktop he sounded like it was possibly years away.

but didn't yawl mention that there were releases taking place this April as far the stands and speaker amps?

We'll be Selling Amphion Ions and Harbeth HL-P3ES-2.

The next Desktop Line upgrade is a ways away. When we do, It will have a microcontroller in it and all the switches will be on the front.

Speaker Stands and Desktop Power Amps are VERY near. All the parts are in house and we're building product. 80% of the copy is written and stuff is showing up on the website. Check here.

that's right, that's right, I remember now..

now that's something to look forward to even if it is a ways down the road.

all of these amps are rated at 4ohm? and what kind of wattage is that mono block bi-amp putting out? any pricing available?
edit: so that's 50w for the high and 50w for the low?