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"Digital Vinyl"? - Page 2

post #16 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkovsky View Post
Incorrect on both accounts. Due to the nature or 44.1/16 PCM bass under 40hz is compromised by lack of bandwidth. As amplitude*frequency=power deep bass requires greater amplitude (in this case word length) than the rest of the spectrum, which isn't available in 16bit when making sensible use of the resolution available. This isn't simply the folly of engineers. But vinyl has it's own limitations, and I'm sure you will find some cds sound better than their vinyl counterparts.
So are you saying that CD would benefit from something conceptually like RIAA equalization, so that the sub-40 Hz content could be brought back up to proper levels?

Following that line of logic, you'd have to admit that vinyl is also bandwidth challenged and needs the crutch of RIAA eq to make up for its limitations, wouldn't you?

What I find odd about your claim is that the mid-'80's to early-'90's Telarc classical CD's were all made using very flat omni mics, uncompressed and un-EQ'ed, and they sound pretty good to me.....more believable/solid bass than I ever heard on vinyl (and I had a top notch TT, Fidelity Research arm, Denon MC cartridges back in the day.....)

I take it that your contention is that the average level of a classical recording must be dropped to a point so the low end will "fit" the Redbook limitations, and that the resolution in the higher frequency ranges suffers.....but likewise, vinyl has a noise floor, and classical LP's were often compressed to bring the lower level passages up so the noise wouldn't be such an issue.
post #17 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkovsky View Post
Incorrect on both accounts. Due to the nature or 44.1/16 PCM bass under 40hz is compromised by lack of bandwidth
Go try it. You'll find out that your numbers don't tell the real story. In practice, a digitized LP sounds EXACTLY like the LP itself.

To understand why your specs don't mean what you think they mean, you have to know what under 40Hz sounds like, and know what it takes to get a system to reproduce the lowest octave in the audible spectrum properly (amplification, speakers, room size and equalization). You also need to find out if the average LP even has signal down that low.

When you listen to music, you aren't listening to 30Hz.

See ya
Steve
post #18 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by trains are bad View Post
Dude, the DAC is playing a recording of the the turntable. Think about it.
And its passing through at least one extra point that the vinyl rig would never use...the DAC. It doesn't matter if it is the exact same recording or not it is simply not the same system.

Think of it this way. I buy a CD of artist X. I play it on my system. You bring your cd player over and we hook it up to the system. We play the same CD. It won't be identical.

Same recording, nearly same system, but not the same system. It may sound similar, it might sound pretty exact, but it can't be exactly the same. This is not difficult.
post #19 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by sejarzo View Post
What I find odd about your claim is that the mid-'80's to early-'90's Telarc classical CD's were all made using very flat omni mics, uncompressed and un-EQ'ed, and they sound pretty good to me.....more believable/solid bass than I ever heard on vinyl (and I had a top notch TT, Fidelity Research arm, Denon MC cartridges back in the day.....)
There's a limit to how low a frequency that can be encoded into the grooves of a record without distortion or without making the needle jump right out of the groove. The length of the sound wave at 20Hz is the length of a Mack truck. An LP just can't contain that at any kind of significant volume level. Perhaps if you cut very wide grooves at 78rpm, but your symphony is going to span a lot of sides, and it really isn't going to sound any different than the normal LP with a slight low end rolloff applied in the disk cutting stage.

Everyone worries about the outer edges of our hearing when the really critical frequencies are the ones that lie right smack dab in the middle.

See ya
Steve
post #20 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanth View Post
Same recording, nearly same system, but not the same system. It may sound similar, it might sound pretty exact, but it can't be exactly the same. This is not difficult.
If it doesn't sound the same to you, there's something wrong with either your DAC or your capture hardware. With a good capture system, there is absolutely no audible difference. (Your mileage with OCD may vary.)

See ya
Steve
post #21 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
When you listen to music, you aren't listening to 30Hz.
Oh but that's where you are so wrong. I don't listen to music- I just listen to test tones all day to know that my setup is perfect if I were to listen to music. It isn't about music, it's about braggin' rights audio!


Joking!
post #22 of 152
Given a good turntable, cartridge, phono pre-amp and analog-to-digital conversion, one can make CDs from LPs that sound very good. I doubt that an all-in-one gadget such as this USB turntable would satisfy anyone with good ears. I routinely make good CDs from LP, but the equipment is fairly expensive and it takes some time.
post #23 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
If it doesn't sound the same to you, there's something wrong with either your DAC or your capture hardware. With a good capture system, there is absolutely no audible difference. (Your mileage with OCD may vary.)

See ya
Steve
Always so belligerent and cocky aren't we. Absolute statements coming from a man who doesn't know it all but feels that he can churn the rot out and make it so.

Feeding the trolls is such tedious work but the upside is that newbies won't be taken by complete egomaniacs who are ignorant of basic physics and logic it is worthwhile.

Let's do this slowly, just in case we have been far too technical for all those involved in the discussion:

If system a <> system b in electronics
system a <> system b in sound

Was that too difficult? I really hope not. But to those that think that all electronics sound the same, then we really are at a brick wall here. Tin ears are tin ears no matter how one spins it.
post #24 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanth View Post
Always so belligerent and cocky aren't we. Absolute statements coming from a man who doesn't know it all but feels that he can churn the rot out and make it so.
If you want any kind of polite response from me, you can afford me the same respect. You're the one that started with the snarky comments in post 9, and now you've ramped it up all the way. I'm not responsible for your lack of control over your temper. But if you insist on behaving like a horse's ass, expect to be treated like one.

By the way, your argument falls under the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent...

(1) If sound is being altered, it might be the DAC
(2) There is a DAC in the chain
Therefore
(3) The DAC is altering the sound

Classic logical fallacy.

See ya
Steve
post #25 of 152
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanth View Post
Good luck finding a cart/arm/phono that will sound like a dac... Even the most linear carts, the longest arms and the most neutral/linear ss phonos won't sound like a very linear dac. Instead of "like" I should use "the same." They will be similar but not enough to mystify folks into think they are hearing the same thing. Maybe some fancy equalizer could help.

So now "good luck finding..." is snarky? And when I indicated the fansy equalizers, I meant it. I was dead serious. I know many around here use equalizers to get the sound they want. I did not intend to be snarky at all with that. But you insinuating I have OCD along with your history of asshattery and absolute authority is par for the course. Then instead of admitting that you know, you could be wrong and all, you merely retort that I started the school yard diggs and you had to do the same. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
post #26 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanth View Post
If system a <> system b in electronics
system a <> system b in sound

Was that too difficult? I really hope not. But to those that think that all electronics sound the same, then we really are at a brick wall here. Tin ears are tin ears no matter how one spins it.
I am not sure about this. I think there may be a difference between measurable and audible. True, it is very unlikely that any two systems, even two copies of the same system, will be measurably identical, there may be slight differences, a piece of wire that is 1mm longer on one system than another could produce measurable differences, small probably, but measurable with fine enough equipment.

Whether these differences are audible is another matter. I haven't ever recorded an LP to CD but I have read about others' attempts to do this and often the CD renderings are not distinguishable from the original LP.

I just did a quick search on the web and I found this link

Matrix-Hifi

this was a test of LP against a CD-R copy of the LP and the listeners were not able to tell them apart.

Wasnt there a test back in the 1980s where Ivor Tiefenbrun (the Linn guy I think) could not say if an Analog to digital to analog gizmo had been inserted after the analog output of a Linn turntable ? I cant find a reference to this.
post #27 of 152
Oh its possible and not just unlikely. What I said was that it would not sound exactly the same. I went overboard with the tin ears bit, but in essence, it won't sound the same. Now, given folks buy DACs and swap opamps in and out to get a "sound" they enjoy, placing such a component in a chain is invariably going to alter the sound. If the device is not in both chains, how can the overall sound be the same? It won't be.

There are people who can listen to an FM recording of a symphony played through a system and have the CD and lp played back and they won't be able to tell the difference. Despite there being a ceiling in treble response on the FM frequency compared with the CD compared with the LP. It sounds the same sure, until one starts pointing out that they just missed out on a chunk of the spectrum they weren't listening for. Once pointed they a loud "Ahhh!" is heard.

The original question was, can a needle drop .wav sound the same as an LP. The answer is yes. Yes it can and should. The problem is reproducing this when the components are different. If the sound isn;t the same, why not? Is it the fault of the recording chain? I would argue no, as does bigshot and others, and rightly so. So why the differnence? The playback system of course. Bigshot disagrees. He and others believe that any difference perceived is deception in the realm of psychoacoustics. The mind fabricated the differences. This certainly can happen, but in this case the elephant in the room is well pretty massive
post #28 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
The length of the sound wave at 20Hz is the length of a Mack truck.
Yep. If I'm not mistaken, a sound wave at 20Hz is about 120 feet (as opposed to a 10kHz sound wave which is about 2 or 3 feet). And to hear a non-reflected 20Hz sound wave you need a listening room that has 120 feet between the drivers and your ears.
post #29 of 152
Simple math and assuming 340m/s sound speed gives a 20hz sound wave at about 51 feet, not 120. That would correspond to a 25 foot organ pipe, which also sounds reasonable.

Edit: 50 feet is roughly the size of a Mack truck.
post #30 of 152
I'm still trying to figure out why the wavelength of that 20 Hz tone in air has anything to do with its physical translation to an LP....

An LP turns at 33 1/3 rpm, and that means each revolution of the disc takes 1.8 seconds...and in 1.8 seconds, the groove has to "go through" 36 cycles of a 20 Hz signal. In the middle of an LP side...let's say at a diameter of 8 inches, the stylus passes through (8 * pi) inches of groove, or about 25 inches.

25 inches/36 cycles means that each full cycle of a 20 Hz tone is recorded in ~0.7 inches of groove.

OK, now that I calculated all that out......ummm, what was your point, bigshot?
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