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vinyl rip vs cd - Page 19

post #271 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

Try bouncing it down to redbook. Differences in mixes can be subtle. Every single SACD I've ever heard (except for Pentatone) has ever so slightly different mastering on the redbook layer than on the SACD layer. Odiferous rodents abound.

I can not put my arm in the fire for the recordings in question. I have TONS of genuine DSD recordings and know exactly how DSD128 differs from DSD64, let alone PCM, even 192/24. Redb....what?

 

My last post till you get The Big One - concentrate on Binaural recording(s). Binaural can not be mixed remixed remastered and manipulated as easily as anything else. In fact, binaural is the ideal vehicle to finaly throne the best digital out there, and at the moment this is DSD 128. You simply can not take the full advantages of DSD in multimiked/multichannel recording. Binaural is by default 2 channel and is the closest approximation of the live sound you can possibly achieve. 

 

The ULTIMATE proof of the above statement? Instead of dummy head of whatever description, use your own head and headworn mics. You will hear exactly as unimpeded by the equipment - and the moment upon returning home you WILL be eager to hear the recording you just made. The best reasonably priced commercially available DSD recorder would be Busman modified http://www.busmanaudio.com/mods.html  Korg unit - up to you if you opt for portable or rack machine. The best tool for the listening would be AKG K 1000, followed by Stax Lambda Pro equalized by ED-1 Monitor Diffuse Field Equalizer, which was made specifically for Lambda Pro.

 

Strictly speaking, Lambda Pro DOES satisfy your requirement for 20Hz-20kHz response. At least TWICE.

 

If you even then do not hear the difference between redbook and DSD128 played natively, you are either deaf, biased beyond description, heavily in the pocket of Redbook, or  - dead. No other option. 

post #272 of 334

Do you hear that?

That's the sound of me, laughing at you. Go and look at the screen caps.

 

First, do you see how much noise there is in the "high-res" recordings? You can't possibly tell me that could be a good thing.

 

Secondly, you'll notice that the converted DSD128 and original 24bit-192kHz files are identical in every way aside from the noise in the first point. If there was any useful difference between them, don't you think it would have also manifested itself somewhere? I can show you more detailed pictures of the spectrum analysis if you want, but I've already looked myself and there is zero difference.


Edited by Tus-Chan - 11/14/13 at 12:51pm
post #273 of 334

Tus-Chan, thank you for taking the time to do that, but let's not dismiss DSD as whole, let alone why I hear the strings come in earlier on DSD than the PCM recording. Thanks.

post #274 of 334

I think you think you hear a difference, but the evidence shows there really isn't one.

 

This is basically what just happened to you:

 

If you skipped watching the video, I highly recommend you take a couple of minutes of your time and watch it all the way through. It's worth every second, believe me. It really highlights how our egos, our cognitive biases, and our lack of sensory ability combine to form some silly sensory illusions.

 

I have a fun idea; how about I reconvert the converted DSD128 file back to its original format, post it alongside the original DSD128 file, and then everyone can guess which one is the original (or, failing that, more "beany" and "rich")? It will be great!


Edited by Tus-Chan - 11/14/13 at 1:09pm
post #275 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tus-Chan View Post

 

I have a fun idea; how about I reconvert the converted DSD128 file back to its original format, post it alongside the original DSD128 file, and then everyone can guess which one is the original? It will be great!

Sure I'm up for it, I suffer no hurt ego from it. I'm always for learning. Post it up!

post #276 of 334

I'll do it later; I've got to get to the post office pronto to ship off my Little Dot 1+.

post #277 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tus-Chan View Post
 

I'll do it later; I've got to get to the post office pronto to ship off my Little Dot 1+.

Congrats on the sale I hope :D who is the lucky buyer! 

post #278 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tus-Chan View Post
 

Do you hear that?

That's the sound of me, laughing at you. Go and look at the screen caps.

 

First, do you see how much noise there is in the "high-res" recordings? You can't possibly tell me that could be a good thing.

 

Secondly, you'll notice that the converted DSD128 and original 24bit-192kHz files are identical in every way aside from the noise in the first point. If there was any useful difference between them, don't you think it would have also manifested itself somewhere? I can show you more detailed pictures of the spectrum analysis if you want, but I've already looked myself and there is zero difference.

I thank you for making those graphs.

 

DSD has one drawback, as you have noted - the high frequency noise. That is where DSD128 is much (by approx 20 dB) better than DSD64 or what is more commonly known, SACD . SACD is only additionally encrypted, otherwise it is DSD64.

 

There is no difference between CONVERTED DSD and most definitely not original 24 bit/192  screen caps. All those different resolutions 99.999 % stem from the master - in this case DSD128. Coverted down by one soft or another. Unless they did run 4 recorders in parallel, each set to a different resolution.

 

The difference does manifest itself - in time domain. Did you listen to the DSD tracks in NATIVE DSD - or converted to PCM? BIG difference. PCM can not even produce correctly looking graph or screen in this case - it creates the same kind of error as during music reproduction. The problem with DSD is that it can not be edited/represented in graph etc without going into PCM and inevitably losing some of its inherent quality. In that sense, it is present day equivalent of Direct to Disk analog record. After 30 years of mastering to death  and gilding the lily to beyond any reason, it is damn hard to find musician(s) who would dare to consider actually issuing their recordings totally unedited. Anything else issued finally as DSD is at least one step removed from the true DSD recording. But still much more natural sounding than redbook. 

 

Brunk, although with confirmed hearing anomally ( that peak at approx 16 kHz ) did not hear ghosts - he quite correctly described the difference. 

Bigshot heard enough difference to trick him into thinking these were not from the same master - even in PCM. 

 

As noted earlier - if you only "process" the recording done by some other person, with one software or another, you can only prove what that software is capable of proving. Listening test on quality equipment is far more revelatory. If you think of raising AB...X question - there is oproblem. Most "whatevers", be it recorder, be it DSD capable DAC - will upon switching from PCM to DSD  and vice versa emit slight glitch - alerting the listener at least to the fact that DSD got changed to PCM or vice versa. It is a common phenomenon with most DSD capable DACs ( see any thread about this on head-fi, it pops up sooner or later ) - so totally "click/hint" free AB...X is not possible at the moment. 

post #279 of 334

I didn't hear anything because I can't play DSD. I pointed out that violins coming in ten seconds later seems to me like a different take of the same song.

post #280 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

I didn't hear anything because I can't play DSD. I pointed out that violins coming in ten seconds later seems to me like a different take of the same song.

No, no, they were perceptible a whole second earlier on the DSD than the PCM to my ears. Not 10 seconds. Unless I made a typo :ph34r:

post #281 of 334

I may have read it wrong, but different entrance points sounds like different recordings or mixes with different ramp ups on the strings.

post #282 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

I may have read it wrong, but different entrance points sounds like different recordings or mixes with different ramp ups on the strings.

Yes this is true, but has been proven to not be the case in this sceanario. Thus, it is either psycho-acoustics at play, or some inherent advantage in DSD. That's the rub.

post #283 of 334

You keep saying this and that is better than those and these, but you haven't given anyone any information as to how or why DSD is better, which makes me incredibly suspicious.

 

Long story short, you're not going to convince anyone with vague platitudes, so start producing some hard info instead of just giving us your opinion.

post #284 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tus-Chan View Post
 

You keep saying this and that is better than those and these, but you haven't given anyone any information as to how or why DSD is better, which makes me incredibly suspicious.

 

Long story short, you're not going to convince anyone with vague platitudes, so start producing some hard info instead of just giving us your opinion.

I have never said DSD is better than PCM. I am merely stating what I hear. You are misinterpreting me. Unless that was directed towards Analogsurviver, then please disregard. You didn't quote who you're replying to.


Edited by brunk - 11/14/13 at 3:15pm
post #285 of 334

Yes, that was directed towards analogsurvivor.

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