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post #211 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
 

 

 ........The Balinese Gamelan has harmonics to about 50K and trumpets can have harmonics out to 100K. ........

 

 

 

I had read that elsewhere as well. I downloaded "BALI Gamelan Music - Gamelan angklung and Gamelan". Spectrum analysis by Audacity barely comes up to 10KHz.

Has anyone tried this?


Edited by wtaylorbasil - 11/11/13 at 6:11pm
post #212 of 296

Most recordings of Gamelan music are made on location in Indonesia with portable equipment. But even so, up to 10kHz is 9 out of the 10 audible octaves. Anything beyond that is just sound pressure at best.

post #213 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

The Balinese Gamelan has harmonics to about 50K and trumpets can have harmonics out to 100K.
Does it? I have a Gamelan album, but it's ripped from a Red Book standard CD.
post #214 of 296

I've heard gamelan players in person. It doesn't sound much different from recordings of gamelan, except that the transient peaks on impacts are more uncomfortable... same as with drums. It makes me flinch a little. I don't think that is ultrasonic frequencies though. I think that is dynamics.

post #215 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by acs236 View Post
 

Yes. It does matter and it IS audible.

 

I ended up using VERY unlikely speakers as my go to default monitors. The Visaton FRS8. http://www.visaton.de/EN/industrie/breitband/frs8_8.html

 

It happened upon the dogged persistance of one of my acquaintances that kept blah blahing how wonderful this tiny  loudspeaker is. For God's sake,

packed in its box, it is smaller than any decent phono cartridge packaging !!!

 

So, I went over to his place and listened. There probably still is an indentation of his floor - from my jaw that dropped as far as it could.

 

It is about the most coherent loudspeaker you are likely to hear - overall, regardless of price. Of course it is limited in loudness, particularly in the bass. You can not court bats with it - see the graphs, for once they are not drawn by public relation fairies, they do correspond to the actual performance.

 

When I heard 

 

 

I was hooked - for good. No other loudspeaker I have heard, with the possible exception of the Beveridge 2SW, came even close. No matter what other loudspeakers I am using or hope to obtain hopefully in forseeable future, the mighty midget FRS8 is here to stay.

 

It images like possesed. Despite limited extension in the treble, it will tell you instantly if it is redbook limited or it roams freely, limited only by the mic placement and musicians playing in any given venue. The soundstage will simply shrink in width and pancake in depth if you compare the same recording in best possible resolution and redbook. No other loudspeaker I have heard does it with this surgical precision.

 

 

There ARE tons of plans for the enclosure for this little giant. The one I find it particularly appealing is the Voigt Pipe  - somewhere in these links :

http://www.audiocostruzioni.com/i_e/links/links-mondiale-diy/links-mondiale-diy.htm I caution you to succumbing to the desire to coax more output level, bass etc by using multiples of drivers and/or substituting FRS8 for its variants, like FRS8M - they will play louder, they will go lower - but the magic just will no longer be there.

 

Believe it or not, that remark in the manufacturer's description

 

"Due to the small size very suitable for model construction and as control speaker for electronic devices."

 

which set me LMAO when I first read it - DOES hold true. Perhaps a tip for amplifier designers ?

 

It is "incredibly" expensive. A single driver will set you back for 15 - 20 Euro - depends where you buy it.

post #216 of 296

A store right buys me sells these for $10 a piece.  You suggest just using two of them in stereo?  They only go down to 200hz -- did you listen with a subwoofer?

post #217 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by acs236 View Post
 

A store right buys me sells these for $10 a piece.  You suggest just using two of them in stereo?  They only go down to 200hz -- did you listen with a subwoofer?

NYET ! Full range - all the way. 

 

I use them in a bass reflex enclosure that *somehow* produces very good bass extension shelf mounted. They are inneficient - I drive them with minimum 70 W/ch amps, but you have to be careful if the programme does go deep and loud down in the bass.

 

The best enclosure for them is the Voigt Pipe mentioned.

 

 

 

 

It has humongous bass extension for the size of the driver - again, does not support loud bass.

Voigt Pipe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voigt_pipe was designed in olden days, when speakers had stiff suspensions and ways around that were the only option to get extended bass. It still comes handy in similar examples.

 

The use of subwoofer(s) is required if you want full range at concert levels. But finding a sub that will not sound sluggish with these Speedy Gonzales might take more effort than usual. 

 

As you can see by now, in a FRS8 based system, the cheapest thing is the FRS8 itself !


Edited by analogsurviver - 11/12/13 at 2:54am
post #218 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

Most recordings of Gamelan music are made on location in Indonesia with portable equipment. But even so, up to 10kHz is 9 out of the 10 audible octaves. Anything beyond that is just sound pressure at best.

If I win a lottery, now I know where to go to spend the money. Recording gamelan in Indonesia, with some mikes with crazy high frequency response extension.

 

Good girls go to heaven - bad girls go EVERYWHERE.

 

Or my way of saying why I love portable equipment.

 

Korg MR 1 ( and its leather protective case ) and MR 1000 DSD recorders besides a laptop and headphones to give you an idea regarding their size.

 

But - poison usually means small bottles:wink_face:.

post #219 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtaylorbasil View Post
 

 

I had read that elsewhere as well. I downloaded "BALI Gamelan Music - Gamelan angklung and Gamelan". Spectrum analysis by Audacity barely comes up to 10KHz.

Has anyone tried this?

 

From Oohashi et al, Inaudible High-Frequency Sounds Affect Brain Activity: Hypersonic Effect
Traditional gamelan music of Bali Island, Indonesia, a natural sound source containing the richest amount of high frequencies with a conspicuously fluctuating structure, was chosen as the sound source for all experiments. A traditional gamelan composition, “Gambang Kuta,” played by “Gunung Jati,” an recognized gamelan ensemble from Bali, was recorded using a B&K 4135 microphone, a B&K 2633 microphone preamplifier, and a B&K 2804 power supplier, all manufactured by Bru¨ el and Kjær (Nærum, Denmark). The signals were digitally coded by Y. Yamasaki’s high-speed one-bit coding signal processor (United States Patent No. 5351048) (Yamasaki 1991) with an A/D sampling frequency of 1.92 MHz and stored in a DRU-8 digital data recorder (Yamaha, Hamamatsu, Japan). This system has a generally flat frequency response of over 100 kHz

.

 

 

 

Can we please not engage in a critique of this paper, this has been done to death elsewhere.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/561552/hypersonic-effect-discussion


Edited by nick_charles - 11/12/13 at 6:37am
post #220 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post
 

Yes. It does matter and it IS audible.

 

I ended up using VERY unlikely speakers as my go to default monitors. The Visaton FRS8. http://www.visaton.de/EN/industrie/breitband/frs8_8.html

 

 

 

 

Looks interesting and is commendably flat in the midrange and has response below 200, above 3K it rises a bit to 10K then has a strange 6db dip then rises again from 15k to 20K. Hard to know what effect that dip has perceptually especially when frequencies up to 10K are slightly boosted. At 10K you are hitting the Hors catégorie climb of the fletcher-munson curves but the response at 20K is the highest point on this speakers FR.

post #221 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
 

 

 

 

Looks interesting and is commendably flat in the midrange and has response below 200, above 3K it rises a bit to 10K then has a strange 6db dip then rises again from 15k to 20K. Hard to know what effect that dip has perceptually especially when frequencies up to 10K are slightly boosted. At 10K you are hitting the Hors catégorie climb of the fletcher-munson curves but the response at 20K is the highest point on this speakers FR.

Above is on-axis response of FRS8. It gets even smoother slightly off-axis, like about 15 degrees or so, the positioning made so that the triangle speakers-listener is arranged so that the direct on-axis lines of speaker are intersecting in front of the listener (speakers toed-in ) or behind the listener ( speakers toed-out) - please see the polar response pattern also included in the specs link. Very good response can be achieved in practice at the listening position, better than the above graph suggests.

 

As the speakers are so small, it is very easy to find "sweet spot" either way - whether it works best toed-in or out depends on the room used.

post #222 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
 

 

.

 

 

 

Can we please not engage in a critique of this paper, this has been done to death elsewhere.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/561552/hypersonic-effect-discussion

Yes, I believe it depends on what equipment is used to record and on to what medium it is stored in. I found another gamelan (mp3) track and the spectrum goes up to 17KHz.

From your picture the particular recording goes to 50KHz. Are the higher frequencies harmonics of the fundamentals and what is possibly the highest fundamental on this recording?

If the same exact method was used to record a Western music, what would the trace look like, given cymbals, piccolo and violins go into 16KHz?

post #223 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post
 

I ended up using VERY unlikely speakers as my go to default monitors. The Visaton FRS8. http://www.visaton.de/EN/industrie/breitband/frs8_8.html

 

I'm curious why super audible frequencies in recordings are so important to you when your equipment can't even reproduce the full range of audible ones?

post #224 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

 

Looks interesting and is commendably flat in the midrange and has response below 200, above 3K it rises a bit to 10K then has a strange 6db dip then rises again from 15k to 20K. Hard to know what effect that dip has perceptually especially when frequencies up to 10K are slightly boosted. At 10K you are hitting the Hors catégorie climb of the fletcher-munson curves but the response at 20K is the highest point on this speakers FR.

 

Does that chart look like the response of a bare speaker? It looks to me like they swiped a headphone's response chart off the web.

post #225 of 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtaylorbasil View Post
 

Yes, I believe it depends on what equipment is used to record and on to what medium it is stored in. I found another gamelan (mp3) track and the spectrum goes up to 17KHz.

From your picture the particular recording goes to 50KHz. Are the higher frequencies harmonics of the fundamentals and what is possibly the highest fundamental on this recording?

If the same exact method was used to record a Western music, what would the trace look like, given cymbals, piccolo and violins go into 16KHz?

 

AFAIK there are no musical instruments with a fundamental much above 5K - certainly anything above 6K (apart from a synth)  is a harmonic. As for the second question , if you have a copy of Audacity (free) you can do a spectrum analysis on a musical clip so if you can find a free high res file (sampled at 96 or 192k) you can feed that into Audacity. I have a short sample of a 96K sample and it runs out at 25K

 

here is another one I found online

 

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