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Don't waste your money on high end digital cables - Page 3

post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon L View Post
People, *READ* this article before going on with your spdif arguments. It's one of the better articles on the whole digital audio transmission and why "bits" are not just bits when it comes to digital AUDIO.
Yes, I read the article--several times--and there's nothing in it that says " 'bits' are not just bits when it comes to digital AUDIO."

In fact, I will quote from it verbatim:

"Bits are bits, and they are always decoded correctly (unless a catastrophic error occurs, but this can be noticed as a very big clicking noise). "

The point of that article is that S/PDIF is a fundamentally flawed interface.
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by sejarzo View Post
Yes, I read the article--several times--and there's nothing in it that says " 'bits' are not just bits when it comes to digital AUDIO."

In fact, I will quote from it verbatim:

"Bits are bits, and they are always decoded correctly (unless a catastrophic error occurs, but this can be noticed as a very big clicking noise). "

The point of that article is that S/PDIF is a fundamentally flawed interface.
LOL Any *reasonable* person would know my point about "bits are not just bits" in digital audio is meant to mean digital audio cables *can* and do sound different despite "bits are bits" DUE to the time domain variability, a.k.a. jitter.

But then again, do I have a "reasonable" audience?
post #33 of 53
Thread Starter 
Jitter (like Hempcamp stated earlier) is mostly a hardware issue. However, long cable runs as well as mismatched impedance in said cables can introduce timebase errors too. I don't see it being an issue with typical interconnects since most of the ones we use in our home systems are very short.

Check out this link: Digital Domain - Jitter

Quote:
Here are two tests I have made (this is far from a complete list):

Test #1
I produced a 99th-generation versus 1st-generation audio test on Chesky Records' first Test CD. If jitter were accumulated on subsequent dubs, then the 99th generation would sound pretty bad, right? Well, most people listening to this CD can't tell the difference and there is room for doubt that there is a difference. It's pretty hard to refute a 99th generation listening test!

Test #2
I built a custom clock generator and put it in a DAT machine. On purpose, I increased the jitter of that clock generator to the point that a dubbing DAT machine almost could not lock to the signal from the jittery souce DAT. The sound coming out of the D/A converter of the dubbing DAT was entirely distorted, completely unlistenable. However, when played back, the dub had no audible distortion at all!

These are two scientifically-created proofs of an already well-understood digital "axiom," that the process of loading and storing digital data onto a storage medium effectively (or virtually) cancels the audible jitter coming in.
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon L View Post
LOL Any *reasonable* person would know my point about "bits are not just bits" in digital audio is meant to mean digital audio cables *can* and do sound different despite "bits are bits" DUE to the time domain variability, a.k.a. jitter.

But then again, do I have a "reasonable" audience?
Sure you do. That's exactly why we "reasonable audiophiles" question that expensive digital cables make any difference compared to inexpensive but properly designed and constructed ones........especially because the overriding problems are with the flawed interface, and not the cables! For what it's worth, that is the only solid conclusion the author of the article makes, as far as I can tell.

Can you cite a controlled test done with a high quality transport and a top-notch DAC, using a variety of digital cables.....cheap to expensive, different construction techniques, everything that could impact jitter.....that shows a measurable difference in the jitter spectrum at the output of the DAC?

Seems to me that would put the matter to rest for truly "reasonable" listeners.

If the bits get to the DAC correctly (a given if the cable isn't pure crap to begin with) and there's no measurable difference in jitter, what might cause the analog output to be different?
post #35 of 53
This stuff ends up going in circles, the people blessed with "golden ears" will continue to defend the cable difference. The rest of the poor "unblessed" people, like me, will never be convinced because I/we were not blessed with the "golden ears"

The golden eared people will continue to say that the hearing differences can not be measured, even though EVERYTHING to do with audio and computer design is measured, calculated, and uses the scientific method. Golden eared people have sensory inputs that far exceed the finest measuring equipment when it comes to audio.

Funny, there are no "golden eyed" people that can see better than video test equipment.
post #36 of 53
What if you are not blind, short sighted, long sighted, colourblind and/or don't have cataracts then I would say you are gifted with golden vision!

People's sight can vary massively but ears I'm not so sure, I have tried different cables in my audio setup and sometimes I am certain I can hear a difference but then other times none at all.

I certainly have not heard a black and white difference, not yet at least.
post #37 of 53
in an audibly and visually blind test im pretty confident that peoples opinions on sound and image would vary tremendously, therefore it almost makes no sense to go and spend that kind of dough on a digital cable. OP makes a great point and has the resume to back it up but then again if you gots the money to spend and believe it to make a difference than who is to stop you. I simply believe the mind is a whacky thing and plays serious tricks on us all.
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle View Post
Wait a second. Did you just say that 1080i blows away 1080p?

That's the most humorous thing I've heard all week.
Not really.. 1080i/1080p is the same resolution.. One is interlaced & the other is progressive. 480p doesn't blow away 480i, does it?
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pars View Post
Interesting, but doesn't surprise me. Were all cables the same length (and what length was that)? Who is Enigma Audio btw?

Thanks.
Yes, all three cables were the same length, 1.0M. I also have a 0.6M EA digital cable .... and I cant tell the two EA cables apart.

Who is Enigma Audio?

EnigmaAudio.com
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by j0shimi View Post
What if you are not blind, short sighted, long sighted, colourblind and/or don't have cataracts then I would say you are gifted with golden vision!

People's sight can vary massively but ears I'm not so sure, I have tried different cables in my audio setup and sometimes I am certain I can hear a difference but then other times none at all.

I certainly have not heard a black and white difference, not yet at least.
I have been told that I better then 20/20 vision and can read almost the entire eye chart to the last two small lines from a good distance. However, one eye is getting weaker then the other and making my vision close to 20/15. If it continues, I may have to get glasses to avoid the headache. Staring at head-fi on screen doesn't really help I'm sure. There are people that can see better then others to the point where its slightly unnatural, I'm sure. The airforce is calling for them.

As for the topic, its got me interested in building my own DAC. All the stuff about reclocking sounds interesting.
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. nice View Post
it almost makes no sense to go and spend that kind of dough on a digital cable.
It's one thing to say different digital cables sound different, but it's quite another to say *only* expensive digital cables sound good!

I have tried pretty expensive commercial digital cables that sound worse than DIY digital cables using nice 75 Ohm coax cable, usually with foamed teflon or foamed polyethylene dielectric, often with $15-20 in parts. But again, there are some expensive digital cables that sound damn nice, but I wouldn't spend my money. I'd rather DIY or find something that's not as expensive, i.e. Stereovox XV2 cable.
post #42 of 53
Wrong thread
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleworld View Post
All our shows are done in 1080i and the picture BLOWS AWAY HD-DVD and BLU-RAY in 1080p mode. The amount of compression in those formats is quite noticeable.
So... you are telling me that your 1080 interlaced picture using (probably) Mpeg 2 compression with bit-rates spec'd for transmission is better than a H.264/VC-1 non-interlaced picture stored on a disc with high bit-rates?

Aside from uncompressed, master print, or studio HD transfer, I highly doubt anything looks better than what comes out of my HD-DVD drive. Btw, I thought they used SDI cable in the broadcast industry? HDMI is a connect for consumer electronics.
post #44 of 53
Cables do make a sound difference......but it doesnt mean all expensive cables sound better in all systems compared to cheap cables.
I have a cable made by Tara Labs that makes my system muddy.
My Monster cables all have a certain "cottony" sound to the midrange for some reason.
I dont believe in multi-$1000 interconnects, but ive spent $100 each and lower on mine.
I think Signal Cable or Blue Jeans cable, Starquad, or something in that league is a good quality investment, and make a difference compared to the $2.00 Recoton cable supplied with a CD player.
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
So... you are telling me that your 1080 interlaced picture using (probably) Mpeg 2 compression with bit-rates spec'd for transmission is better than a H.264/VC-1 non-interlaced picture stored on a disc with high bit-rates?

Aside from uncompressed, master print, or studio HD transfer, I highly doubt anything looks better than what comes out of my HD-DVD drive. Btw, I thought they used SDI cable in the broadcast industry? HDMI is a connect for consumer electronics.
Yes and he is absolutely right. Over the air pbs 1080i is going to look better than a 1080p blu-ray or hd-dvd because it is uncompressed (or nearly) the bandwidth each station has is unreal. Now goin through cable or satellite the BRD or HDDVD is gonna win cause the compression is usually lower.
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