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How can I create Holophonic Sound? - Page 2

post #16 of 38
Very interesting read. I have been considering the purchase of a dummy head just for fun in order to record local jazz performances and to do fun demo recordings.

If anyone does any homemade binaural or holophonic recordings - do let us know.
post #17 of 38
I suspect that holophonic means binaural recording plsu some proprietary tweak, which adds tzing to the sound but no accuracy.

I noticed a few Stereo Review binaural lp's on ebay and even a JVC Dummy head recording set-up.

I would say all you need are some small mic's attached to your ears. Probably $100.00 would get some good ones.
post #18 of 38
Gautama: Wow, the FLAC files from that link you posted sounded pretty damn good with my Atrio M5. Thanks for the experience.
post #19 of 38
I'm looking into Holophonics specifically now, to see what the differences are.

"Developed in the 1980s by Hugo Zuccarelli, Holophonic Sound uses the same "multiple exposure" premise as that used to create holographic images ("holograms"). Holophonic Sound is produced by recording the interference pattern generated when the original recorded signal is combined with an inaudible digital reference signal." (source)

That's interesting. And leaves me with more questions than answers.

What's unfortunate is that they speak of the quality, but this sounds kinda cruddy to me: Sound Ideas Dimension Sound Effects Library I've heard better from other methods. But let's keep researching anyway, shall we.

"Zuccarelli believes the ear/ brain generates its own reference beam. Using a technique analogous to the laser beam in holograms external sounds are recorded with synthesized reference sounds. The brain provides its own second reference beam and "decodes" the holophonic record reproducing the original ambient conditions." (source)

Yay, ITOTD did a piece on it: Holophonic Sound: Interesting Thing of the Day "His holophonic process starts with a type of binaural dummy head, but it reportedly records the interference pattern formed by mixing the sound with an inaudible, digitally superimposed reference signal."

That sounds heartening. Gives the impression that we might someday be able to get bespoke pinnae reflection recordings, and apply them in real-time with plugins for Winamp/Foobar/iTunes. Surely it's not that easy, but it should give an extra push towards realism.

How similar is this to the HRTF plugins that already exist, though? Do they just not get enough love because most people don't have worthy headphones?

Hah, gotta love what's tucked in the corners of places we've already been to: What is Holophonic Sound, Where is Hugo Zuccarelli? - The Binaural Source Unfortunately, he links to theaudio.com, saying that they have the holophonic heads -- but when looking through their site, they only offer a spherical binaural mic and don't mention a damned thing about holophonics. Missing the point, gents.


Oh hey, a spooky experimental album from 1983, recorded with Zuccarelli's methods. The Thing On The Doorstep: Psychic TV - Dreams Less Sweet

I'm gonna go listen to that. Maybe I'll peek under some more internet rocks later.
post #20 of 38
As far as using your own head, these Sony mics evidently plug into your ear and would make good binaural mics.

Amazon.com: Sony ECM-TL1 Electret Condenser Earphone-Style Digital Microphone: Electronics

Edit: Try this its a lot cheaper

Sony ECM-TL1 - Wisp Pipe Business Microphone
post #21 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiga View Post

Which sort of headphones are you testing this on, adfinder23?
Just regular old ear-muff types bought from a music store. Coby is the brand. Nothing high end or anything. The holophonic recordings work great on them and I can pinpoint the location of the sound. I'm looking to create recordings like this that anyone can listen to, so it's important that it doesn't require any special headphones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edstrelow View Post
I suspect that holophonic means binaural recording plsu some proprietary tweak, which adds tzing to the sound but no accuracy.

I would say all you need are some small mic's attached to your ears. Probably $100.00 would get some good ones.
That does seem to be the case. It also seems that Hugo Zuccarelli's holophonic sound might be different from Stakey's Cetera algorithm, as Hugo invented his technique in the 80's and Cetera didn't come out until '99. Eitherway, the effect seems to be the same. Hard to know which one you're listening too though, as even the Cetera recording is found on the web as Holophonic. So with the confusion of the differences between Holophonic, Cetera, and Binaural who knows which method the recording they're listening to is made from. Cetera would definitely work though, since I know the Virtual Barbershop uses Cetera.

Buying mics for my ears is what I planned on doing, but I wanted more info first to see if it could create recordings like the ones I posted.

I'm making a few contacts to find more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiga View Post
I'm looking into Holophonics specifically now, to see what the differences are.

"Developed in the 1980s by Hugo Zuccarelli, Holophonic Sound uses the same "multiple exposure" premise as that used to create holographic images ("holograms"). Holophonic Sound is produced by recording the interference pattern generated when the original recorded signal is combined with an inaudible digital reference signal." (source)

That's interesting. And leaves me with more questions than answers.

What's unfortunate is that they speak of the quality, but this sounds kinda cruddy to me: Sound Ideas Dimension Sound Effects Library I've heard better from other methods. But let's keep researching anyway, shall we.

"Zuccarelli believes the ear/ brain generates its own reference beam. Using a technique analogous to the laser beam in holograms external sounds are recorded with synthesized reference sounds. The brain provides its own second reference beam and "decodes" the holophonic record reproducing the original ambient conditions." (source)

Yay, ITOTD did a piece on it: Holophonic Sound: Interesting Thing of the Day "His holophonic process starts with a type of binaural dummy head, but it reportedly records the interference pattern formed by mixing the sound with an inaudible, digitally superimposed reference signal."

That sounds heartening. Gives the impression that we might someday be able to get bespoke pinnae reflection recordings, and apply them in real-time with plugins for Winamp/Foobar/iTunes. Surely it's not that easy, but it should give an extra push towards realism.

How similar is this to the HRTF plugins that already exist, though? Do they just not get enough love because most people don't have worthy headphones?

Hah, gotta love what's tucked in the corners of places we've already been to: What is Holophonic Sound, Where is Hugo Zuccarelli? - The Binaural Source Unfortunately, he links to theaudio.com, saying that they have the holophonic heads -- but when looking through their site, they only offer a spherical binaural mic and don't mention a damned thing about holophonics. Missing the point, gents.


Oh hey, a spooky experimental album from 1983, recorded with Zuccarelli's methods. The Thing On The Doorstep: Psychic TV - Dreams Less Sweet

I'm gonna go listen to that. Maybe I'll peek under some more internet rocks later.
Yep, those are some of the pages I've found. I was hoping someone here knew exactly how to do it, or if there was software or hardware to create the emitted sound or make the recording, etc. I didn't find any actual products though, just the Holophone, Binaural mics, dummy head forms, and other 3d sound recorders. Perhaps there's a recording forum I could ask on.

I also found a page with Hugo's email. So hopefully it is up to date and I can shoot some questions to him.
post #22 of 38
It still boils down to two audio tracks and HRTF in the end. Even if they say their head-related transfer functions are "more than that" - it's just more advanced HRTF.

Honestly think about it. The only possible way you can locate a sound is by comparing the time at which the same sound arrives at each ear. You don't think about it, it's automatic. Any possible cue for position has something to do with the way the sound bounces off or flows through your head.

It's hard to simulate because there are so many factors. The shape of your outer ear even makes a big impact.
post #23 of 38
Thread Starter 
That's what I want to find out. Where can I get the more advanced HRTF (software or whatever) to turn binaural into something as accurate as Holophonic.
post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiga View Post


Oh hey, a spooky experimental album from 1983, recorded with Zuccarelli's methods. The Thing On The Doorstep: Psychic TV - Dreams Less Sweet

I'm gonna go listen to that. Maybe I'll peek under some more internet rocks later.
I have Psychic TV - Dreams Less Sweet, and some part of it sound very very realistic, great record.
post #25 of 38
Some technical bits of the album were very nice indeed. Can't say that it was much more realistic than other methods I've heard, though.

Anyway, I looked up Zuccarelli's (apparently only) patent from the mid '80s: Google Patents It's just a patent for making a really realistic dummy head, and doesn't go into the holophonic processing.

I suppose the only good way to go forward will be to contact the man himself. Nobody seems to know how to do it, I can't find consumer-grade gear, and prior explanations for the technique are lacking to the point of sounding like urban legends. Of course, he seems to be very protective of his method -- but so protective that next to nobody gets to benefit from it. Alas.

Good luck '23. I hope you share any intel that you gather.
post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericj View Post
It still boils down to two audio tracks and HRTF in the end. Even if they say their head-related transfer functions are "more than that" - it's just more advanced HRTF.

Honestly think about it. The only possible way you can locate a sound is by comparing the time at which the same sound arrives at each ear. You don't think about it, it's automatic. Any possible cue for position has something to do with the way the sound bounces off or flows through your head.

It's hard to simulate because there are so many factors. The shape of your outer ear even makes a big impact.
Theer are three main interaural stimulus cues to direction, time differences between the ears, amplitude (loudness) differences between the ears, and phase differences, (eg. where on the signal wave each ear is). The amplitude difference is largely the result of the sonic shadow cast by the head.

For commercial stereo the main cue is amplitude. There may or may not even be any time differences. For example, some stereo mics have both sensors essentially right on top of each other but pointing in different directions. Alternatively microphones may be set so far apart that the time differences may be magnitudes greater than with your ears and be in conflict with the phase differences.

But there will always be an amplitude difference.

One of the anomalies of natural hearing versus recordings is that at the bottom range of hearing there may be no interaural difference on bass frequencies because the wave length is so long that there is no shadowing of those frequencies by the head. Thus there is no natural interaural cue to bass. Nevertheless you can record an interaural difference and play it back through headphones where it will be perceived as a directional cue.

This is probably one of the reasons why stereo can sound more dramatic through headphones than loudspeakers.
post #27 of 38
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I checked out the patents too. He does indeed seem very protective of his patent.

I've sent him an email, so we'll see if it's still his email or if he'll respond.

I also emailed Sound Professionals about their Binaural mics and they say that is exactly what Binaural mics will achieve on their own. I also asked if they had samples similar to see how it compares. They said no, but will put it on their to do list and see if they can get one out quickly.
post #28 of 38

cetera software

Quote:
Originally Posted by adfinder23 View Post
Just regular old ear-muff types bought from a music store. Coby is the brand. Nothing high end or anything. The holophonic recordings work great on them and I can pinpoint the location of the sound. I'm looking to create recordings like this that anyone can listen to, so it's important that it doesn't require any special headphones.



That does seem to be the case. It also seems that Hugo Zuccarelli's holophonic sound might be different from Stakey's Cetera algorithm, as Hugo invented his technique in the 80's and Cetera didn't come out until '99. Eitherway, the effect seems to be the same. Hard to know which one you're listening too though, as even the Cetera recording is found on the web as Holophonic. So with the confusion of the differences between Holophonic, Cetera, and Binaural who knows which method the recording they're listening to is made from. Cetera would definitely work though, since I know the Virtual Barbershop uses Cetera.

Buying mics for my ears is what I planned on doing, but I wanted more info first to see if it could create recordings like the ones I posted.

I'm making a few contacts to find more.



Yep, those are some of the pages I've found. I was hoping someone here knew exactly how to do it, or if there was software or hardware to create the emitted sound or make the recording, etc. I didn't find any actual products though, just the Holophone, Binaural mics, dummy head forms, and other 3d sound recorders. Perhaps there's a recording forum I could ask on.

I also found a page with Hugo's email. So hopefully it is up to date and I can shoot some questions to him.
hi, i'm trying to obtain this software for making a binaural head but it's really difficult to find it on the web so i would like to know if you have it and if you can give it to me. thank you , hope your answer soon.
post #29 of 38
One of these in the OP holographic link is the same song on track 1 of the Ultrasone binaural CD. Sounds like the same recording.

01 "Sileypud", New Haranni Poison Mixers - excerpt (John Barnes)

Compare to Holographic "Jazz Band"
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradofan2 View Post
Are there any CDs recorded in this manner?

If so, what are they?
Check out this album Can - Flow Motion.
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