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Is it time to boycott cable companies? - Page 13

post #181 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sejarzo View Post
If one wants to make a point, that person should provide the reference. So far, what sacdlover has posted is what amounts to hearsay in a courtroom....and it's rejected in legal arguments for a reason.
In case you are confussed this is a Headphone forum...not a court of law

But for your knowledge (and to better sacdlovers "case")

Steve Hoffman11-17-2006, 12:27 PM
Folks, I use this stuff in some studio settings but just remember, your home gear might not be designed to be played back with totally neutral wire. It might need some "help" in getting the sound you really like. This is where different brands of wire come in. I have a $5,000.00 loaner CD player that ONLY seems to work with the cheapest Rat Shack wire. Everything else makes the thing sound DOA on my system. Take advantage of the flavor of wire to tune your system to how YOU like it. Don't just wire it up with studio wire and expect it to sound the best it can because (for home playback) that's probably not going to happen. It's totally gear dependent, right? You don't necessarily want neutral wire, you want pleasing sound. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.
post #182 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sejarzo View Post
If one wants to make a point, that person should provide the reference. So far, what sacdlover has posted is what amounts to hearsay in a courtroom....and it's rejected in legal arguments for a reason.

Is this a legal argument .... no

The question I asked can also be answered in a hypothetical situation.

Once again ....
I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, Steve Hoffman has EXPLICITLY expressed he believes cables sound different.

So is Steve Hoffman ignorant? Yes or no Steve; skip the double talk for once.

We can also say, assuming Steve Hoffman believes cables sound different .... is he ignorant? Yes or no?

What is so threatening about answering a simple question? Secondly, is there some reason you need to run interferance for Steve?
post #183 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
You're absolutely right. I was typing my response literally as I was on my way out the door and inadvertently transposed the two examples. I would edit my post, but since there have already been replies, that would create more confusion than it would solve. Sorry! This is what I meant to write:
Febs - very good points. However, you imply that valid scientific fact be based on the absence of the/a viewer. This is quite contentious. I've stated before: phenomena and numbers are the ONLY things which are inherently unbiased. Interpretations and explanations (read: scientific "facts") are inherently biased. Once the/a viewer is involved, the whole thing can and will go haywire (if we're to understand the history of science within these constraints).

Is "science" (the process - e.g. scientific method) a human construct? It may follow that the generally accepted "facts" validated by a potentially biased method are biased as well, no?
post #184 of 411
I love when the cable threads meander into the realm of law and epistemology! (My grad school focus.)

The statement "I can hear a difference, therefore a difference exists" is not a sound argument, only a valid one. There are several reasons why the statement "I can hear a difference" may be true: you may perceive a difference through expectancy bias, for example. But you would need to prove that "a difference exists" independent of the statement "I can hear a difference" in order for the argument to be sound ("a factual argument").

I'm not claiming that "so-and-so can not hear a difference." Maybe so-and-so can. But for you to come to a sound conclusion that "a difference exists" requires a bit more legwork than merely asserting the truthfulness of your premise.

The test-that-shall-not-be-named is the only accepted way that I know of, outside of audiophilia, to determine the truthfulness of the conclusion "a difference exists."

--Chris
post #185 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by hempcamp View Post
I love when the cable threads meander into the realm of law and epistemology! (My grad school focus.)

The statement "I can hear a difference, therefore a difference exists" is not a sound argument, only a valid one. There are several reasons why the statement "I can hear a difference" may be true: you may perceive a difference through expectancy bias, for example. But you would need to prove that "a difference exists" independent of the statement "I can hear a difference" in order for the argument to be sound ("a factual argument").

I'm not claiming that "so-and-so can not hear a difference." Maybe so-and-so can. But for you to come to a sound conclusion that "a difference exists" requires a bit more legwork than merely asserting the truthfulness of your premise.

The test-that-shall-not-be-named is the only accepted way that I know of, outside of audiophilia, to determine the truthfulness of the conclusion "a difference exists."

--Chris
In the end all that matters is ones own enjoyment of music.
I have never judged music with a sheet of specifications infront of me, neither do I use and osilliscope to determine what is good and bad.
I use this technique.
If I want to listen more...winning combination
If I listen less...something has to be changed, be it program, equipment, room, cables.
All that matters is what I like to listen too, same goes for everyone else, after all, if we all liked exactally the same thing there would only be one of each product, and what a boring world that would be
post #186 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacd lover View Post
Is this a legal argument .... no

The question I asked can also be answered in a hypothetical situation.

Once again ....
I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, Steve Hoffman has EXPLICITLY expressed he believes cables sound different.

So is Steve Hoffman ignorant? Yes or no Steve; skip the double talk for once.

We can also say, assuming Steve Hoffman believes cables sound different .... is he ignorant? Yes or no?

What is so threatening about answering a simple question? Secondly, is there some reason you need to run interferance for Steve?
First, we are debating an issue here, wouldn't you agree? Your previous statements regarding Steve Hoffman and cabling are a "he said, she said" kind of thing....and that wouldn't score points on a third-string junior high debate team, should something such as that exist. If you want to argue conclusively that Steve Hoffman has concluded that cables make a difference, at least have the initiative to prove that is the case by citing exactly what he said, not simply claiming that he has said so.

Secondly, I'm just on the same side of the fence as bigshot when it comes to the cabling issue for the most part.....just as 883dave appears to have found it necessary to "run interference" for you, by posting a good direct quotation that certainly proves your claim that Hoffman believes there is a difference.

But I find something very interesting in the quotation provided by 883dave.......that Steve Hoffman thinks that a $5000 CD player only sounds good with the cheapest Radio Shack wire. I'd like to hear what he thinks that wire sounds like on less expensive (and presumably less neutral) players.

A $5000 CD player should be neutral, and shouldn't require a cable that others think sounds like crap on most other gear to make it sound right. A likely conclusion is that neither the $5000 CD player nor the RadioShack cable are neutral, just that they have errors that largely offset those in the other.

Thus, I seriously disagree with his statement that "It's totally gear dependent, right?" A proper cable should work well with any properly designed gear...and be neutral, because that's the real goal.

No, in a strict sense, Hoffman is not ignorant (desitute of knowledge or education, or lacking intelligence) but no one ever claimed that he was. Scientists have different viewpoints on a variety of issues, and they don't go around calling each other ignoramuses. Well, not in most cases, anyway.

I honestly don't think bigshot was referring to anyone in particular, either on or outside of this forum, when he posted an old adage regarding ignorance in general. However, only he can confirm or deny that.
post #187 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sejarzo View Post
First, we are debating an issue here, wouldn't you agree? Your previous statements regarding Steve Hoffman and cabling are a "he said, she said" kind of thing....and that wouldn't score points on a third-string junior high debate team, should something such as that exist. If you want to argue conclusively that Steve Hoffman has concluded that cables make a difference, at least have the initiative to prove that is the case by citing exactly what he said, not simply claiming that he has said so.

Secondly, I'm just on the same side of the fence as bigshot when it comes to the cabling issue for the most part.....just as 883dave appears to have found it necessary to "run interference" for you, by posting a good direct quotation that certainly proves your claim that Hoffman believes there is a difference.

But I find something very interesting in the quotation provided by 883dave.......that Steve Hoffman thinks that a $5000 CD player only sounds good with the cheapest Radio Shack wire. I'd like to hear what he thinks that wire sounds like on less expensive (and presumably less neutral) players.

I seriously disagree with his statement that "It's totally gear dependent, right?" A proper cable should work well with any properly designed gear.

No, in a strict sense, Hoffman is not ignorant (desitute of knowledge or education, or lacking intelligence) but no one ever claimed that he was. Scientists have different viewpoints on a variety of issues, and they don't go around calling each other ignoramuses. Well, not in most cases, anyway.

I honestly don't think bigshot was referring to anyone in particular, either on or outside of this forum, when he posted an old adage regarding ignorance in general. However, only he can confirm or deny that.
First, this is an internet discussion board not a court house and we are not on a debate team.

I asked bigshot to answer a specific question. I am not debating. I want him to answer my question. I dont care what bigshot was referring to. My question was spawned by his ignorance comment but I dont care if there is any connection or not. He will not be executed if he answers the question. There is no right or wrong answer.

Once again again again ....
I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, ASSUMING Steve Hoffman actually believes cables sound different ..... is Steve Hoffman ignorant? Yes or no.

If bigshot is to intimidated to answer?

What would your answer be?
post #188 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by 883dave View Post
In the end all that matters is ones own enjoyment of music.
I agree with this truism. But it doesn't inform us as to whether we should or shouldn't buy cables from companies that make unfounded claims. That's what this thread is essentially about.

If it is true that properly-designed cables have no audible difference (my belief), then you aren't really enjoying the music so much as enjoying the cables.

My purpose in this and similar threads is, 1) to ask people to seriously consider whether they are really enjoying the music or merely enjoying the equipment, and 2) to help newcomers understand that there are many other factors that more directly and more easily (and in many cases, more inexpensively) could improve their enjoyment of the music (room acoustics, speaker placement, different headphones, etc).

--Chris
post #189 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by hempcamp View Post
.....My purpose in this and similar threads is....to help newcomers understand that there are many other factors that more directly and more easily (and in many cases, more inexpensively) could improve their enjoyment of the music (room acoustics, speaker placement, different headphones, etc).
Me too. I answer as many as 50 PM's a week regarding the set up of the 0404 USB, and quite often once the new users get it up and running, they ask me if I think the $100 interconnects they have on order are going to make it sound a lot better.....or worse, they want to know if maybe they should cancel that order and buy something even better?

A lot of noobs presume that expensive cables are worth it strictly based on price, because they think there is no way that anyone could sell expensive cables to educated/experienced audiophiles if they didn't make a huge/major/significant/"night and day" difference. My guess is that is the "meat" of the marketing plan for certain cable vendors.

If I were a student on a limited budget and spent nearly as much on a pair of RCA cables as I did on my cans, I'd be pretty upset if they didn't make a world of difference. And by that, I mean an unmistakably positive difference that anyone would hear.

I try to disabuse them of the notion that expensive cables are worth it, but not always successfully.
post #190 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman
Folks, I use this stuff in some studio settings but just remember, your home gear might not be designed to be played back with totally neutral wire. It might need some "help" in getting the sound you really like. This is where different brands of wire come in. I have a $5,000.00 loaner CD player that ONLY seems to work with the cheapest Rat Shack wire. Everything else makes the thing sound DOA on my system. Take advantage of the flavor of wire to tune your system to how YOU like it. Don't just wire it up with studio wire and expect it to sound the best it can because (for home playback) that's probably not going to happen. It's totally gear dependent, right? You don't necessarily want neutral wire, you want pleasing sound. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.
I don't know Steve Hoffman, so I can't say what he knows or doesn't know. But I can say that this comment attributed to him is lousy advice to give people. Neutrality is what you want in EVERY piece of equipment. Trying to balance color for color in every single component in a system would cost a fortune in trial and error. But of course, it isn't his money being wasted, so what does he care? If a component doesn't perform properly, don't buy a fancy wire to try to put a patch on it. Take the piece of junk back to the store and exchange it for something that does perform up to spec.

See ya
Steve
post #191 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I don't know Steve Hoffman, so I can't say what he knows or doesn't know. But I can say that this comment attributed to him is lousy advice to give people. Neutrality is what you want in EVERY piece of equipment. Trying to balance color for color in every single component in a system would cost a fortune in trial and error. But of course, it isn't his money being wasted, so what does he care? If a component doesn't perform properly, don't buy a fancy wire to try to put a patch on it. Take the piece of junk back to the store and exchange it for something that does perform up to spec.

See ya
Steve
So lemme get this straight:

You think SH wasted his money on Rat Shack cables because his CDP sounds better (to him) with them in the signal chain?

Or do you think SH is ignorant because he spent $5000 on a CDP? And specifically what "spec" should his CDP perform to?
post #192 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I don't know Steve Hoffman, so I can't say what he knows or doesn't know. But I can say that this comment attributed to him is lousy advice to give people. Neutrality is what you want in EVERY piece of equipment. Trying to balance color for color in every single component in a system would cost a fortune in trial and error. But of course, it isn't his money being wasted, so what does he care? If a component doesn't perform properly, don't buy a fancy wire to try to put a patch on it. Take the piece of junk back to the store and exchange it for something that does perform up to spec.

See ya
Steve
Eminently sensible advice, you must not be an audiophile :-)

Why do so many get upset by common sense?
post #193 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomjtx View Post
Eminently sensible advice, you must not be an audiophile :-)

Why do so many get upset by common sense?
Because it makes them rethink their sacred cows.

If Steve Hoffman says "it's totally gear dependent"......that could be taken to mean that one cannot say for sure if a particular $300 cable would actually make your system brighter, even if it makes most other systems sound brighter. And that's ridiculous, if that is what he means.
post #194 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by hempcamp View Post
My purpose in this and similar threads is, 1) to ask people to seriously consider whether they are really enjoying the music or merely enjoying the equipment, and 2) to help newcomers understand that there are many other factors that more directly and more easily (and in many cases, more inexpensively) could improve their enjoyment of the music (room acoustics, speaker placement, different headphones, etc).

--Chris
Why then do you have wish lists for equipment in your signature?

In a lot of threads that newcomers ask for advise, there is a lack of knowledge passage from most of the key people in these debates (I include myself in this).
post #195 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by yotacowboy View Post
Or do you think SH is ignorant because he spent $5000 on a CDP?
Steve Hoffman was quoted as saying ".....I have a $5,000.00 loaner CD player that ONLY seems to work with the cheapest Rat Shack wire. Everything else makes the thing sound DOA on my system. "

Meaning, every presumably neutral cable that SH tried in combination with the unit revealed that the output of that expensive CDP was not very good.

Excuse me, but where did bigshot ever say that he thought SH was ignorant?

It generally helps to read responses before arguing that they state something different.
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