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HeAudio 1.3, 1.2B and the new JADE Stat Headphones - Page 168

post #2506 of 2677
I don't see why I can have any Stax bias, since I dislike the majority of their current products and have spent a good deal of time fixing the mess they have left behind. I've also owned just about every electrostatic headphone ever made so claiming I'm some Stax fanboy is simply utter crap. I like the electrostatic principle regardless of who makes the transducers and if the Jade were worthwhile in anyway I would have bought one. While some may like the washed out sound I prefer neutrality and not some "flavor". I want the system to get out of the way as much as is possible and the Jade (along with a lot of other headphones) have way too much of a character of their own. If you were to ask me to recommend a headphone in the 500$ range I would recommend the Koss ESP950 simply because it is the best choice there is.

As for the BHSE, I meant the HE60 would be excellent with it. I do own a BHSE which hasn't been delivered yet but I did own the old one and have a couple of finished PCB's just waiting to be tested here.

You claiming that the design is defective by needing a truly powerful amp just shows how utterly clueless you are. It would be easy for Stax to sell and amp that could drive the SR-007 with ease (and they have in the past) but it would cost 10k$+.

You like the Jades and that's fine but there are even people that dislike them more then I do. Amongst those are avid HE60 fans which don't like Stax phones at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mopps View Post
IMO the O2 (at least the current SR-007A/II) is far away from sounding realistic or balanced, but rather euphonic and relaxing. IME it has big bloated mid-bass and unnatural damped upper mid-range. Can't imagine that there should exist an even more euphonic headphone out there...?

The only reason I still keep the O2 is IMO its very unique holographic imaging (unfortunately all in-head, like a concert hall en miniature). But frequency-wise a medium-sized catastrophe to my ears.
I couldn't agree more and that's why I invented a mod to bring back most of the sound of the SR-007 Mk1. It's not 100% though since Stax changed the drivers a bit.
post #2507 of 2677
Your Stax bias is widely known, no matter how much you deny it. Looking at your profile it's all that you own. So denying your Stax bias rings just a little bit untrue. I don't criticize people for not liking the Jades, different strokes. You however tend to speak in absolutes, and there are no absolutes where personal opinions are concerned. Your answer that it's the amp when someone doesn't like your chosen headphones is a symptom of Fanboyisim. It's what Sennheiser Fanboys scream whenever someone doesn't like the 600/650 and now the 800's. Can a better amp help a headphone, absolutely! but it doesn't change the basic character of the headphone. The difference with Stax is that they make and market amps specifically designed for use with their headphones, if they are inadequate then the Headphone system that they sell is in effect defective or at least substandard. I also don't know how else to describe a $2000 headphone that requires a $10,000 amp to sound good but defective.

Of course there are people who don't like the Jade, there is no headphone that everyone likes. There are many people who prefer the Jade to the HE60's and the 007's, and considering that the actual number of people who have legitimate experience with the Jades that's a miracle. It's not the fact that you dislike them, it's the way you declare in absolute terms that they suck. You basically make every effort to declare anyone who likes them to be deaf, or in search of a colored headphone.

Quote:
if the Jade were worthwhile in anyway I would have bought one. While some may like the washed out sound I prefer neutrality and not some "flavor". I want the system to get out of the way as much as is possible and the Jade (along with a lot of other headphones) have way too much of a character of their own.
So if I like the Jades I am after a "Flavor". To my ear (And I'm not alone) it's the 007's that have more of a flavor, but not so much so that I wouldn't like to have a pair. Once again it's your smug condescending way in which you state your opinions as absolute fact that I find annoying, even to the way you claim that you have to modify everything to make it at all worthwhile. As I said you are not the ultimate arbiter of all things electrostatic. Your's is just another opinion, the only thing about your opinion that is factual is that it's just another opinion, I'd appreciate if you made just a little effort to realize that there are other opinions than yours, and that no matter what your huge ego believes everyone Else's opinions are every bit as valid as yours.
post #2508 of 2677
A better amp will certainly change the basic sound signature of a transducer if the less powerful amp doesn't have the juice to drive it. For instance you are going to output some frequency tone at a certain volume level into a given load. If the amp can swing the voltage then all is good but if it is struggling/the impedance is low then it needs current to make up for the difference. If there is no current to give then the tone will be rolled off since the amp can't supply the voltage. Basic Ohm's law. If that doesn't change the sound signature then you can just say the roll off point on the OTL amps doesn't matter and neither does output impedance or slew rate. Now a 700$ SRM-717 will be just fine for the SR-007 and you can build a kick ass amp for less then that.

So me selling off all my headphones (150+) and only keeping the one that I started off with (SR-007) plus one Omega hybrid makes me a fanboy? So I should keep a few sets around just because finding something one likes and sticking with it is so un HF or something like that? We apparently have very different meanings to the term fanboy and to me you showing all the classic signs.

Everybody has opinions and some I value more then others. Simple as that. Is there something so wrong with thinking that experience might count here or is that something to be overlooked in favor of the magic of burn in and fuse directionality?
post #2509 of 2677
No, what makes you a fanboy is how many times you have to come into a thread that is about the HeAudio Jades and are compelled to remind everyone how much you think they suck and how much more you know about electrostatics so your opinion is the only one that really matters. How many times have you posted in this thread which is about the HeAudio Jades that you think they suck and that the 007's are soooo much better? I do like the Jades a little better than the 007's, how many times have I gone into the Stax thread and crapped there? Zero. That's because I'm not a raging HeAudio Fanboy, and I don't need to spread the Gospel of Jades. Whereas you are a fanatical Stax Fanboy and you'll piss on any thread about any other electrostatic headphones. Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're not specifically a Stax Fanboy. Perhaps it's just that you have such a raging ego, that you consider yourself MR. Electrostatic that you have to go and piss all over any thread that pertains to anything Electrostatic. Ah... It's probably both.

Yes I know that you know a great deal about how electrostatic headphones work, and I greatly value your expertise in that area. What you can't seem to get through your thick skull is that just because you know more about how they work it doesn't make your opinion about which headphone is Natural more valid than anyone else's who has experience with the headphones being discussed. Just because you know more about how something works doesn't mean that your subjective opinions as to the tonal characteristics of a given headphone carry any more weight than someone who doesn't know the technical minutia of the headphones being discussed, and yet you seem to feel that your opinion is worth more than everyone else's.
post #2510 of 2677
I come here for opinions on headphones and related equipment.

First point - in most postings spritzer provides factual or clearly labelled as personal opinion information, which we can all, as adults, read in the overall context of the provider of that info. So, to use a recent Stax Thread response comparison between spritzer and krmathis regarding the differences between the 007 Mk 1 and 007 Mk 2...

Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
The SR-007 Mk1 has champagne colored housings with either black (rather rare) or brown cable, earpads and arc assembly. The SR-007Mk2 is all black, even the aluminum housing. There is also the Japanese SR-007A which is identical to the Mk2 but is has polished silver aluminum parts while the rest is black. It also says SR-007A or Mk2 on top of the headpad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krmathis View Post
There are four (4) different O2 models:

1997-2007 (often referred to as MK1)
* SR-007 -> Brown leather/cable and champagne housing (picture)
* SR-007BL -> Black leather/cable and champagne housing (picture of my pair)

2007-
* SR-007A -> Black leather/cable and silver housing (picture)
* SR-007MK2 -> Black leather/cable and black housing (picture)

As you see, the MK1 have champagne colored housing. While the MK2 have black colored housing.
IMHO Spritzer is more conversational and focussed on visual aspects whilst krmathis is detail/reference focussed. I appreciate both. Neither is displaying fanboy characteristics.

In relation to the post that started this diversion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
The top end of the Jade was pretty rough to my ears and they have the same etch issues as most other electrostatics. The sound is also a roller coaster ride with peaks and valleys all over the place so there are other hot spots as well. I would personally take a fully restored HE60 over the Jade any day (or pretty much any electrostatic for that matter) especially with the BHSE. The common wisdom here that the HE60 are easy to drive couldn't be more incorrect and they really come alive when fed with some real power.

What you are picking up on is the inherent etch (or resonant frequency) of electrostatic transducers and the only way to make it go away is with damping. I'm rather sensitive to this as well and that's why I love my SR-007's. That's what Stax did with the SR-007 but you could also try the original normal bias Lambda or the Sigma phones. The normal bias Sigma is a peach but the Pro bias unit is rather bland. Now if you could track down a Sigma with SR-404 drivers then they are by far the best of the bunch.
First, I have tried to highlight how he reinforces, especially when he commences a personal opinion post how it is IMHO. Spritzer is 'straight up' and direct - that's just how he is - if you interpret that as his ego then that is IYHO. Thanks for letting us know that grates you but please don't make it the the focus of the postings - let's stick with headphones and related equipment.

I also highlit that he often refers to electrostatics in general in his opinions. Just because there are more Stax models to discuss and refer to out there doesn't, IMHO, make spritzer a "fanboy". The only consistent headphone he is definitely a fan of, and very clear in stating it, is the SR-007, preferably the Mk1. That's clear to anyone who reads his postings in context, just like we can all reasonably easilly identify other consistent favourites of particular members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
You however tend to speak in absolutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
It's not the fact that you dislike them, it's the way you declare in absolute terms that they suck. You basically make every effort to declare anyone who likes them to be deaf, or in search of a colored headphone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
Once again it's your smug condescending way in which you state your opinions as absolute fact that I find annoying, even to the way you claim that you have to modify everything to make it at all worthwhile. As I said you are not the ultimate arbiter of all things electrostatic...I'd appreciate if you made just a little effort to realize that there are other opinions than yours, and that no matter what your huge ego believes everyone Else's opinions are every bit as valid as yours.
I think he posts very direct comments but he's also made it regularly clear that his opinions are simply based on his exploration and the more he's gotten to better quality sources and amps the more he's heard what so few of us do get to hear, which is each phone delivering a higher end than what's heard through the more commonly owned amps and other equipment.

He also doesn't use 'infinite' terms like 'suck', 'ultimate' and 'deaf' (i.e. extremes of a spectrum). Where he's responded with more emotion in this discussion just shows that like most of us humans he'll respond to someone labelling his behaviours with such 'absolute' terms.

Yes, everybody's opinion holds validity. But I'll take the opinion of someone with a wider range of experience in a particular field over someone with lesser experience in most circumstances (giving due consideration of course to their overall viewpoints on the subject matter they're expert in of course). So, for instance, I consult my endocrinologist regarding my diabetes, but I work with him and his opinions, in collaboration with my own experiences, to determine the best ways of managing it. In similar ways I PM spritzer and others on a potential course of action (e.g. when I considered the Jades for myself) before making my own decision considering all of the suggestions/opinions put before me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
Your answer that it's the amp when someone doesn't like your chosen headphones is a symptom of Fanboyisim. It's what Sennheiser Fanboys scream whenever someone doesn't like the 600/650 and now the 800's. Can a better amp help a headphone, absolutely! but it doesn't change the basic character of the headphone.
Much as I appreciate your humble opinion that it (absolutely) doesn't change the basic characteristic, I'd have to indicate I've heard amplification certainly bring out elements of that characteristic that were not even apparent with previous amps and, therefore, made the headphone sound quite different to that previously heard. This has been with electrostatics and dynamics. In fact I've heard enough of that variation based on what's feeding the headphone to almost always post not only are my comments IMHO but they are also an assessment of the overall system and system synergy, not just the headphone at the end of the audio chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
And as far as Stax fans always blaming the amp for their poor performance, well that's a cop out. If the Stax headphones need amps that were not even glints in their designers eyes when the headphones were designed to sound good then the design is inherently defective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
The difference with Stax is that they make and market amps specifically designed for use with their headphones, if they are inadequate then the Headphone system that they sell is in effect defective or at least substandard. I also don't know how else to describe a $2000 headphone that requires a $10,000 amp to sound good but defective.
I have to disagree there. Other manufacturers also run the gauntlet of audio quality versus consumer willingness to pay in creating their products. The Stax amps, like all equipment, are not perfect (What is?). They market combinations that provide a good, and sometimes very good, rendition of what the design can achieve. But the range of after-market amps pretty clearly have shown many of us, not just spritzer, that these headphones can extend way beyond what they are initially driven with. To use your car analogy, some prefer their showroom Mustangs, Comaros, etc but many always see them just as a base to modify from in order to achieve far more of what they are capable (including new engines/amplification).

I'll use a spritzer quote to re-emphasise this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
If you were to ask me to recommend a headphone in the 500$ range I would recommend the Koss ESP950 simply because it is the best choice there is.
First, an interesting recommendation (that I thoroughly concur with) for a person you believe is a Stax Fanboy.

Second, this is IMHO the most forgiving of the current range of ESPs out there. No matter what I drive it with, it sounds at leasts good (getting better with better systems). However once it's connected to the higher end systems it falls short (in my experience so far) of what the best headphone partnered to that system can produce (which in my range is quite often the SR-007 Mk1 or the HE60s). It's a great Comaro that handles a range of conditions very very well. Whereas the Mustang SR007 needs a certain minimum power to really be satisfying and the Challenger HE60 will show it's weaker bass with many amps driving it.

More than 'different strokes for different folks': different experiences based on the amplification provided to each of the ESPs (Stax or otherwise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
It would be easy for Stax to sell and amp that could drive the SR-007 with ease (and they have in the past) but it would cost 10k$+.
Yes, I'd like to hear the renowned Stax SRM-T2 also

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
Remember everything is IMHO or Your Humble Opinion. spritzer is one of, if not the most knowledgeable members concerning Stax products. However it's still just his opinion, and I happen to disagree with his harsh evaluation of the Jade's.
Point taken. Appreciate your opinion on this as much as, perhaps more than, spritzer's (because of your longer experience with the Jades)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mopps View Post
IMO the O2 (at least the current SR-007A/II) is far away from sounding realistic or balanced, but rather euphonic and relaxing. IME it has big bloated mid-bass and unnatural damped upper mid-range. Can't imagine that there should exist an even more euphonic headphone out there...?

The only reason I still keep the O2 is IMO its very unique holographic imaging (unfortunately all in-head, like a concert hall en miniature). But frequency-wise a medium-sized catastrophe to my ears.
Your system synergy is different to others' with this ESP. I think your comments relate to the overall synergy and this ESP, particularly with some of the suggested mods, is quite capable of delivering more for you (at least according to the details within http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f113/s...ad-new-223263/).
post #2511 of 2677
I think that spritzer was a bit too quick to make conclusions about the Jade. As I remember it, it seemed that he only listened to it for about an hour before talking about its "roller coaster ride" frequency response. I don't think this is a fair assessment.

Otherwise, if you've read enough spritzer posts, you'd realize that he's to the point and likes to repeat things. Every time someone talks about the Lambda Pro, he's quick to say how he thinks it's the worst Lambda, etc. etc. It's the same as his repetitive Jade statements. That's why spritzer isn't a Stax fanboy out to bash the Jades. I think spritzer's opinions are valuable because he's very consistent, and if anyone on Head-fi finds that they have similar tastes (or even totally different tastes), then it's easy to figure out which headphones might be right.
post #2512 of 2677
Sorry, double post
post #2513 of 2677
There is a mistake being made here concerning Birgir repeating himself, or constant bashing (depending on context).

The same questions are often asked over and over again with regard to Stax/electrostatic related conversation. Our Icelandic stalwart is often first man on the scene, and has a filing cabinet full of informative answers which he has had the patience to continue to explain to knew inquiring parties over several years. As a result, this builds up a post history which has patterns of similarity.

As for Jade bashing, pointing out the faults that he hears when apt isn't bashing. Birgir is one of the best people on this site for proper contextualisation and of his comments and any elaboration or justification of them.

Sure, I can see very easily why people would pick up on him as a one-line tape loop, as regards his telling people about how he prefers the SR-007. However he has not to my memory been guilty of the behaviour of some with a one-headphone-bias or one-headphone-fandom (naming names might get me in trouble here) in foring this favourite view into threads all over the place like some do.
post #2514 of 2677
The relentless off-topic posts that spam this thread makes you the one who appears to be a fanboy, not vice-versa. How can people possibly expect to get a fair and valued accessment from you when another members opinion throws you on a defensive path which clearly shows your biases.

:Sigh: I cannot begin to tell you how many times i've seen people listen to the O2s improperly, then voice their misconstrued opinions as fast as they had time to spend with the phones. But your opinion is yours. Like stated earlier, I also value certain peoples opinions more than others, but no ones opinion should dictate the way you feel about your own gear or anything else.
post #2515 of 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadneddz View Post
I cannot begin to tell you how many times i've seen people listen to the O2s improperly, then voice their misconstrued opinions as fast as they had time to spend with the phones.
I don't particularly care for O2s. What's the "proper" way to listen to them?
post #2516 of 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by webbie64 View Post
I also highlit that he often refers to electrostatics in general in his opinions. Just because there are more Stax models to discuss and refer to out there doesn't, IMHO, make spritzer a "fanboy". The only consistent headphone he is definitely a fan of, and very clear in stating it, is the SR-007, preferably the Mk1. That's clear to anyone who reads his postings in context, just like we can all reasonably easilly identify other consistent favourites of particular members.
If you noticed I finished by saying that it's probably just the fact that he considers himself Mr. Electrostatic. (Then I joked about it being Both) Since he thinks he's Mr Electrostatic he feels his opinions matter more, and IMO they count for no more than any number of experienced members. As an example I owned and was listening to Stax headphones while he was learning to tie his shoes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by webbie64 View Post
He also doesn't use 'infinite' terms like 'suck', 'ultimate' and 'deaf' (i.e. extremes of a spectrum). Where he's responded with more emotion in this discussion just shows that like most of us humans he'll respond to someone labelling his behaviours with such 'absolute' terms.
In response look at this posting by Spritzer. He doesn't say that I don't find them worthwhile, he makes the blanket statements that "if the Jade were worthwhile in anyway I would have bought one." That is in essence saying that they suck, how else could it be interpreted? Then he doesn't say that he feels that they have a washed out sound, he says "While some may like the washed out sound I prefer neutrality and not some "flavor"." Here he is saying that they are washed out and that if you like them you are therefore looking for something that by his declaration is not neutral, some flavor. Most of us are looking for what we perceive to be neutral, and yet he declares that the Jades are NOT neutral. Nowhere does he mention that he doesn't find then neutral, it's washed out and flavored. Not an opinion, a statement of fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
I like the electrostatic principle regardless of who makes the transducers and if the Jade were worthwhile in anyway I would have bought one. While some may like the washed out sound I prefer neutrality and not some "flavor". I want the system to get out of the way as much as is possible and the Jade (along with a lot of other headphones) have way too much of a character of their own.



Quote:
Originally Posted by webbie64 View Post
Much as I appreciate your humble opinion that it (absolutely) doesn't change the basic characteristic, I'd have to indicate .......
Actually I wrote "Can a better amp help a headphone, absolutely! but it doesn't change the basic character of the headphone.

I wrote a question "Can a better amp help a headphone, (Should have been a ? instead of the comma) but the answer was Absolutely! then I added the but. Spitzer argues in one post that it takes a $10,000 amp, and then in another post he argues that it only takes a $500 amp. Which is it? or does some magical power come with being Mr. Electrostatic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by webbie64 View Post
Point taken. Appreciate your opinion on this as much as, perhaps more than, spritzer's (because of your longer experience with the Jades)
Thanks, I don't listen to them as much as I would like. I do however own them and know them well. As an owner and someone who knows them well I have posted a total of 67 times in this thread (Not all positive posts). Whereas Spritzer who does not own them and has limited experience with them has posted in this thread 166 times, the majority of which have been overwhelmingly negative. He enjoys crapping in other peoples yards. It seems every-time anyone posts something positive in this thread he feels compelled to do some more crapping. It's not like the Jades are some mad FOTM that are threatening to draw in hundreds of unsuspecting newbies. So please in all seriousness, why does he feel compelled to bad mouth the Jades to such an extent? The only reason that I can come up with is his Ego, he has to prove that he is Mr. Electrostatic. I think his user name should be changed to Mr. Electrostatic, then he might not feel so obligated to crap on so many threads.
post #2517 of 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by powertoold View Post
I think that spritzer was a bit too quick to make conclusions about the Jade. As I remember it, it seemed that he only listened to it for about an hour before talking about its "roller coaster ride" frequency response. I don't think this is a fair assessment.
He actually had elephas' pair for a while. I share his views with regard to the Jade (and I had someone else's pair on loan as well, these are not meet impressions).
post #2518 of 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by atothex View Post
I don't particularly care for O2s. What's the "proper" way to listen to them?
From a physical standpoint. The most common is people listening to them with the earpads on backwards. Not only do the earcups rotate, but also the pads independent of the earcup. During the shuffle of a meet, the orientation of the pads can completely change. Sometimes people even listen to them with the right and left cups swapped because the earpads have been rotated and it looks correct without looking at the R/L markings.
post #2519 of 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadneddz View Post
The relentless off-topic posts that spam this thread makes you the one who appears to be a fanboy, not vice-versa. How can people possibly expect to get a fair and valued accessment from you when another members opinion throws you on a defensive path which clearly shows your biases.
So you want a fair and valued assessment of the Jades? Have you read all 168 pages of this thread? That's probably the best way.

A Fanboy for what?
post #2520 of 2677
Many thanks to spritzer and webbie64.

I see. So I must borrow and try some 007 from a fellow at last. Preferably before I decide to make any modifications to my 007A. But I doubt that this would change my attitude much. I already realized that we all have different tastes and habits. And maybe the O2 isn't just "my" sound, like HD650, D5000, W3, e.g. With the Transistor Amp things are getting better, mainly the control in the lower-range, but the O2 remains the same altogether.

But what I don't understand yet is which of Jade and 007(A/II) is the more euphonic headphone now...? Thought all the time it was the Jade. Maybe I should borrow (or order) a Jade, too...

Sorry for OT.
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