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Goldmund V.S. Pioneer !!?? - Page 2

post #16 of 164
1/15/08 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faust2D View Post
I bet I can have my friend mod the Pioneer for $200 to be nicer than the Goldmund, with better parts as well. This is so sad.

Improving the power supply and chassis, and replacing the transport will cost significantly more than $200.
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post #17 of 164
1/15/08 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hciman77 View Post
Hmmm. Maybe I have just been lucky but apart from a faulty Rotel unit none of my various CD/DVD devices have shown any tendency to vibrate noticeably. With my DVD-ROM drive on my laptop PC I do sometime get really serious shaking from some discs but my audio units are all pretty shake-free and I sit very close to my listening set-up (less than 2 feet away). My Onkyo does make a slight chik chik chik noise on pause though.

Isnt vibration a function of bad transport alignment ?
I'm pretty sure it isn't just about avoiding vibrations caused by the transport, but also vibrations introduced by the player's surroundings.
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post #18 of 164
1/15/08 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hciman77 View Post
Hmmm. Maybe I have just been lucky but apart from a faulty Rotel unit none of my various CD/DVD devices have shown any tendency to vibrate noticeably. With my DVD-ROM drive on my laptop PC I do sometime get really serious shaking from some discs but my audio units are all pretty shake-free and I sit very close to my listening set-up (less than 2 feet away). My Onkyo does make a slight chik chik chik noise on pause though.

Isnt vibration a function of bad transport alignment ?
It's not a vibration you can hear or even see but it is easy to measure. Most players are built from thin, stamped chassis and that is a lot of unbraced surface area built of a very thin material. Most manufacturers (including Rotel as I own a RCD-971) place some damping materials on the inside of the chassis but it isn't enough. Transformers are also a source of vibration so it's not only players that suffer from this but amps as well. Cables are also highly susceptible to airborne vibrations.

All transports vibrate to some extent but many manufactures have gone to great lengths to isolate it. Sony and Accuphase placed the transports on huge slabs of material to damp them. Esoteric went into overkill mode and thus makes the best transports. Shame about the rest though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grawk View Post
Improving the power supply and chassis, and replacing the transport will cost significantly more than $200.
I don't see much there that would cost 200$. The PSU is unchanged unless a linear one is placed on the connector board and the Pioneer board is fully populated. The transport is obviously the same but might be mounted differently.
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post #19 of 164
1/15/08 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
None of those mods will make a big difference as there is the same output stage with a second PCB and extra wire to mess up the signal a bit more. I'm not even sure why the toroid is there as I can't see any PSU for it unless Pioneer had one on the board to begin with. It should sound better due to the larger and better case but this is still basically a robbery.
Maybe it would help a bit if the pictures are labeled. Assuming that I correctly understand the pictures (1st is Pioneer, 2nd and 3rd are Goldmund), it looks to me as though the PCB on the left are basically the same in both units. So, like you, I'm wondering how the toroid is used. However, the PCB on the right are not the same? Isn't this one the output board?

Other improvements are that the sockets are not on the PCB in the Goldmund version. Again that doesn't make it worth the cost. Normally for Goldmund you are paying for the expensive work that Swiss elves do. I wonder what it is here.
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post #20 of 164
1/15/08 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guzziguy View Post
Maybe it would help a bit if the pictures are labeled. Assuming that I correctly understand the pictures (1st is Pioneer, 2nd and 3rd are Goldmund), it looks to me as though the PCB on the left are basically the same in both units. So, like you, I'm wondering how the toroid is used. However, the PCB on the right are not the same? Isn't this one the output board?

Other improvements are that the sockets are not on the PCB in the Goldmund version. Again that doesn't make it worth the cost. Normally for Goldmund you are paying for the expensive work that Swiss elves do. I wonder what it is here.
The brown board is the switch mode power supply and the green board houses the decoders and the video and analogue output stages. The green board do look a bit different but it could have been designed for some higher end Pioneer as there are revisions for PCB mount connectors. Goldmund just jumpered them with wires over to another PCB in the back.
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post #21 of 164
1/15/08 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
The brown board is the switch mode power supply and the green board houses the decoders and the video and analogue output stages. The green board do look a bit different but it could have been designed for some higher end Pioneer as there are revisions for PCB mount connectors. Goldmund just jumpered them with wires over to another PCB in the back.
I'm guess that the PCB in the back is to hold or otherwise allow connections to the input and output sockets. On both boards, all sockets have been removed and are mounted in a different manner. The green board is enough different that it both could be a different revision, or it could be proprietary. Either way, like you I don't see $6K worth of differences, but then I'm neither a designer nor an audio equipment producer, so what do I know?

I would like to know where the wires from the toroid actually go and what may have changed due to this.
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post #22 of 164
1/15/08 at 9:50pm
Whatever the differences, I'm willing to bet my hat that the had both been given to a panel of audiophiles and magazines, the Goldmund would come out on top by a huge margin despite the seemingly minor differences
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post #23 of 164
1/15/08 at 10:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkpowder View Post
Whatever the differences, I'm willing to bet my hat that the had both been given to a panel of audiophiles and magazines, the Goldmund would come out on top by a huge margin despite the seemingly minor differences
Only after being burned in!
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post #24 of 164
1/16/08 at 12:39am
Wow... I've owned Pioneer players in the same line, with the same decoder, and likely with the same DAC chips (PCM1742). They sounded good, but $6,000 good? Nooooo...

I've never heard of Goldmund before, and I expect not to hear much about them again after this. There's pretty much no explanation for a high-end player to use an entirely mass-market design.
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post #25 of 164
1/16/08 at 2:08am
Actually,

Goldmund themselves acknowledge that some of the parts originate from Pioneer: GOLDMUND - Newsletter - September 2005

They just forgot to mention the extent of their work was the case, transformers, front panel plastic buttons, RCA / power plugs, and wiring.

This has been going on with many manufacturers of audio equipment so they can have an entry-level CDP in their range. But, never have I seen such illarious uplift in the retail price?!? Aluminum is that expensive in Switzerland? ...

Edit: an even older newsletter announcing the SRDVD product (but is it even what we're talking about here?) mentions about <<... using Goldmund circuit to playback CDs with highest sound quality.>> GOLDMUND - Newsletter - August 2003
Which Goldmund player's guts we're looking at here?

Edit: even the most basic player they offer has SACD feature, which does not appear to be mentioned on the pioneer front panel: GOLDMUND - Products - SRCD3
I am doubting if these pics from the goldmund are authentic now... Original poster, what are your sources? A competitor to Goldmund ?

arnaud.
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post #26 of 164
1/16/08 at 2:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

I am doubting if these pics from the goldmund are authentic now... Original poster, what are your sources? A competitor to Goldmund ?

arnaud.
you can also read below article for your reference.


Eden Audio :: View topic - Rip off, or what.


I am just a consumer.
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post #27 of 164
1/16/08 at 2:56am
From the Goldmund website:

Quote:
"This is not too critical we hope but we have no legal right and no way to cancel the Pioneer logo that may appear on the menu of the SRDVD when used in Video. The real basic reason is that we buy from Pioneer not only the transport mechanism, but in the same time, all the DVD rights attached. These rights, in fact, Pioneer has paid them for us. Legally we have no other way to prove it. Very sorry for those who complained about it."
Ouch... It even displays the Pioneer logo. Edit: It even uses the same Pioneer remote, with a gold strip over the Pioneer logo!@$#

Also, according to that thread, the price is not $6,000, it's £6,000. That's almost $12,000 USD!

Here's another one from the thread: Edge G CD Player (Price: £4,500 / $8,825)

Outside


Inside
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post #28 of 164
1/16/08 at 5:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by guzziguy View Post
I'm guess that the PCB in the back is to hold or otherwise allow connections to the input and output sockets. On both boards, all sockets have been removed and are mounted in a different manner. The green board is enough different that it both could be a different revision, or it could be proprietary. Either way, like you I don't see $6K worth of differences, but then I'm neither a designer nor an audio equipment producer, so what do I know?

I would like to know where the wires from the toroid actually go and what may have changed due to this.
The green board could be the original board from the chip manufacturer and Pioneer made their own but those stock boards aren't known for their analogue design.

There is nothing that would suggest a linear PSU anywhere so it would be used to run relays or the 12vDC switching capability so some other system integration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitesymphony View Post
Here's another one from the thread: Edge G CD Player (Price: £4,500 / $8,825)

Outside


Inside
They didn't even bother to remove the PCB mounted sockets... I'm clearly in the wrong line of work as I would make a fortune doing this... I could even do it Rudistor style and house the PCB's in separate internal housing and seal those with epoxy... for the shielding effect...
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post #29 of 164
1/16/08 at 11:28am
FWIW, I owned an upper-level Goldmund player a few years ago. An audio manufacturer friend of mine helped me open it, and both he and I were less than impressed (understatement) with the transport: noisy, quirky, pretty flimsy for the cost of the player. The sound quality was decent in my system, but not good enough to keep it. Fortunately, I managed to sell it for pretty much what I paid. I’ll never buy another Goldmund product again.
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post #30 of 164
1/16/08 at 11:33am
For those that don't know Goldmund well then they made their mark in the turntable world and now are shipping a TT that costs something like 350k$. There is a A/D converter in the arm so all the RIAA conversion takes place in the digital domain. I'm starting to wonder just how innovative it really is...
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