Any point in getting a turntable? - Page 2

It's official!
CDs promote a sedentry lifestyle!!
Actually, teachers deserve some R&R during the summer. My parents are both teachers, and they finish today! Yay!

LOL!!!

As a guy in my 30s I started with vinyls and by now am almost fully converted to CDs. Why, because it is convinient and the sound doesn't deteriorate with time. i found that even if you handle tour LPs with great care the sound deteriorates after repeated playback. The sound, as anyone say, LPs sound natural and organic, but after spending 10 years with CDs I got sort of used to their sound. I mean, switching back to vinyl makes me miss the detail of Cd playback.
McBiff, you can get a budget turnatable(from ProJect which got nice reviews) for as little as 2400SEK, add another 500SEK for NAD PP1 phono stage and you're in bussiness. Later on you can upgrade the cartridge and the phono stage to something better.
However, with the new high res formats comming, one may get the naturalness of the vinyl combined with the detail of digital.
If i were you, I'd wait. I know you have the same system as I do (Marantz CD6000 OSE+OBH11) and it sounds reasonably smooth and warm. I'd hold on to it for couple of years until the whole issue of new formats gets clearer and then I'll upgrade.

It's not actually as bad as it sounds. Its no different than using a CD transport and an outboard DAC, but then you may need an anti-jitter filter also (Probably just a conspiracy to sell more cables ) As insanefred said if you are willing to invest a little time you can find some pretty good deals on vinyl spinning equipment. As far as the record cleaning, I agree with joelongwood in that it became sort of a ritual and I think it actually contributes to the listening enjoyment. And some of the best current bang-for-the-buck cartridges are still made by Grado. Lastly, I couldn't find a "slight sarcasm" smilie to put after my teacher question since I already knew joelongwood was a teacher.

Just want to add a few comments here:

1. One of the things you give up in a lower cost LP system (turntable, cartridge, phono preamp) is detail. The really good high end LP systems have far more detail than CDs.

2. If you play LPs repeatedly, as in play it again right after it finishes, then you will get permanent wear due to the compression of the grooves. However if you let the record "rest" for a day before you replay it, you can do this hundreds of times and it will still sound great...as long as you don't mishandle it and your equipment is in good shape. I have records from 30 years ago that I still play frequently, and they have very few pops or clicks in them. I play them because the music is still great and they still sound a lot better than the CDs of the same stuff. There are some excellent sounding CDs being made now, but a lot of the early CD mastering doesn't sound very good. To be fair, there are also a lot of LP reprints that don't sound very good either. It's the earlier pressings that sound really good; eventually the stampers wear out.

3. A lot of the newer good lower cost LP equipment sounds a lot better than the good medium price stuff from 10-20 years ago. My Rega P3 sounds a lot better than my older Technics direct drive turntable.

4. Before you get into LPs you should let your taste in music and your budget help decide. Most people that are into vinyl still play a lot of CDs, as this is how most music is being released now. On a limited budget, you may be better off putting the extra money to improve your CD equipment rather than spread your money over two different playback mediums. On the other hand, there are a lot of great LPs you can buy used pretty cheaply, and some excellent music that isn't even available on CD yet...not to mention SACD.

I listened to a vinyl vs. cd vs. sacd once at a nice hi-fi shop in Southern California (Ambrosia Audio and Video - they give very good service). The person who helped me was a big vinyl fan and gave me a couple of demonstrations of records that he had in vinyl, CD, and SACD. The vinyl was run off of some $2500 turntable setup. The CD player used was the Meridian 588. The SACD player used was the Marantz SA-1. The amps were Classe and the speakers were Aerial 10Ts if I remember correctly.

Of course this is far from scientific, because the different records may not have been mastered the same way, blah blah, but for a very rough estimate:

Vinyl sounded much more organic, much smoother across the soundstage. It also had a deeper soundstage than either CD or SACD. In comparison, CD sounded kind of pockmarked and uneven. SACD was considerably less pockmarked than CD but still not as organic as vinyl.

The problem I had with the vinyl is that the highs seemed recessed. I really didn't have time for a lengthy audition, but to give you a quick example, on CD I could clearly hear a bell jingling. On the vinyl record that same bell was muffled... actually the muffling made the sound "more pleasant," more euphonic, but I don't think it was as true to the music.

Overall I preferred SACD in that demonstration, as I realized on the drive back...

But the Marantz SA-1 does cost $6000, so maybe not such a good comparison? Can't comment, haven't heard any SACD, we've just about discovered flushing toilets in Ireland...

But if you were to spend 6 grand on a vinyl setup, then there are some killer MCs which could possibly improve those highs.

Go Vinyl! Do it man, do it! I am a beleiver that a lot (not all) of well cared for vinyl sounds better than their CD counter parts. While a lot of folks think it is strictly the medium, I think a lot of it is the engineering that goes into it.

I have heard CDRs of records that sound better than the commercial CDs that were released (I have two "sample dubs" of a session recorded by Micheal Fremer of Stereophile Mag and they blow away the commercial CD versions) which makes me think that a lot of third rate engineers are producing the CDs these days.

Some days the static is worse than other (humidity levels) , and you have to handle them gently, but if I was forced to choose, I'd keep my vinyl.

If you find a Rega Planer for $250 grab it fast and put the most expensive Grado you can put on it (unless you can afford a Denon 103D - and can find one).

Thanks for the comparison, shivohum. I find the deep soundstage that LPs have is something that is just unmatched in digital. About the highs being recessed, this is something that is very dependant on the cartridge. As with all transducers, there is a lot of variation even amoung the top models. I auditioned two well respected $2000+ cartridges once, and I was shocked how much one of them (a Koetsu) rolled off the highs. For that matter, the bass was a bit rolled off too. The midrange was something very special however, and this is why people buy that cartridge. But the other cartridge (a Win) gave up nothing to any CD player I've ever heard, even ones with 192kHz upsampling DACs. One doesn't have to spend that much money on a cartridge that doesn't roll off the highs, some at every price level even boost the highs. Cartridges are like headphones and speakers (they are all transducers) in that even the really good ones sound a lot different from each other.

I would suggest not getting into vinyl.

It's not that I believe CD sounds better than vinyl - in fact I think CD sounds much worse than vinyl. It's just that, once you get into vinyl you introduce a whole new layer of hi fi obsessiveness, paranoia and expense.

Five or six years ago I owned no records and no turntable. I bought a cheap turntable just to play some second hand records I saw in a store once that I thought it would be fun to buy. Six years later, and many many thousands of dollars later, I have a full spec LP12, with Ekos, Naim Armageddon power supply, a Lyra Clavis Evolve cartridge, with a Clavis DC and Ortofon Rohmann sitting in a drawer, Exposure 13, Michell Delphini and Black Cube phono stages, and about 2000 LPs. The turntable blows away any digital source I have ever heard, and most people who visit my home are impressed that records sound so much better, so obviously better in every respect, and by a large margin, than CDs on my Meridian 508.24.

But be warned, once you start collecting vinyl, you will start obsessing about tracking weight and VTA, stylus wear, new arms, what material the turntable mat should be made of, belt wear, cartridge upgrades, replacing all your favourite CDs with LPs, VPI cleaning machines ... the list - and the expense - is endless.

My advice is: listen to your CDs and be happy.

Besides, in a couple years, SACD should become more reasonable - already you can get some albums at Amazon for under $20 - not too bad. And the sound is pretty good - some prefer it to vinyl.

Hey, watch it Ross! I'm not obsessed! I mean, really, just 'cuz I have a mono and stereo version of Elvis' How Great Thou Art, multiple copies of Rachmoninov's Vocalise and lie awake at night thinking of Anna Moffo and Leopold Stkowski's American Orchestra on LSC-2795 does not mean I am obsessive!

And that crack about being paranoid, I mean really! Its not like I have a killer attack dog guarding my collection (down Cujo...sit, sit...good boy) or keep a shotgun close by. I mean everyone in AR owns a shotgun and Rotweiler, don't they?

And if I choose to spend my money at yard sales on stacks of records instead of making repairs to my 15 year old car, that's my business.

No, you may be obsessed or paranoid, but not me!

(You aren't going to come to Arkansas now to look for records, are you? We don't have any...I mean, I go to...Texas, yeah Texas to look for records, yeah.)

Audio Redneck, I have just one thing to say about those insane ramblings of yours:

Ross, your advice somehow reminds mind of the way Bugs Bunny used to deal with the Tazmanian Devil: just tell him exactly what he has to do, and he will most certainly do the opposite. I mean what hope of preventing mcbiff from buying a turntable can you really have, when you proceed to tell him the simple truth about them: Cunning and scheming devils is what you two are.

Tomcat,

Just read your profile - Awesome setup! Are you on the Phonogram list? If not, e-mail me and I'll give you the details.

Some of the regular contributers include:
Editor of a major audio mag.
Reviewers of some major audio mag.
Some famous people from the recording world.
Retired conductor of a major orchestra.
Some nobodies like me that the rest accually seem to take seriously with questions and comments.