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Is elephant leather unethical? - Page 3

post #31 of 55
Some will likely disagree here, but a huge community of scientists has all but proven (absolute proof being impossible) that every living entity on Earth is as it is as the result of evolution by natural selection - survival of the fittest, as some call it, but it's more about reproduction than survival. In other words, "we" are here because not every living being survives long enough to reproduce. If there were no death, "we" would still be a bunch of simple, self-replicating carbon-based molecules, completely incapable of having this discussion. Death is one of the most essential components of any ecosystem and any society - without it nothing we know would be recognizable. How, then, can anything, human or otherwise, me or you, have an intrinsic right to life?

I consider myself an environmentalist, and I would never willfully purchase something made from an endangered species, but I'm pretty sure that's mostly because I like seeing them alive, not because they have any intrinsic right not to be made into silly little trinkets for our petty enjoyment.
post #32 of 55
I think it's OK to kill another living being as long as you eat it... That way the life energy is passed on to another living being.

Just don't let me babysit your kids.

See ya
Steve
post #33 of 55
people seem to think it matters what words come after a phrase like

"I think it's okay to kill"

impressively depressing
post #34 of 55
Come on, are we having a debate or are we just repeating opinions ad nauseum? Luminette, we know you think killing things is wrong. Now tell us why, and be logical about it, or you will not convince anyone.

Steve, if I shoot a critter and leave it to the coyotes and maggots, does that satisfy your requirement that the life energy be passed on? I probably won't do it, but I'm curious anyway

This is kind of a fun thread.
post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
I think it's OK to kill another living being as long as you eat it... That way the life energy is passed on to another living being.

Just don't let me babysit your kids.

See ya
Steve
Then why was daummer locked up? (Ball! Jussst a bit outside).

I would agree that causing the death of an animal for the purpose of making wallets is wrong. I would also think it a waste of resources to not use it. If the hides were harvested from naturally dead animals, would it be ok?
post #36 of 55
That would probably be Ok, though there's really no reason to kill elephants for wallets etc. It's just mean.
post #37 of 55
I would throw one of my Far Side books on the scanner at this point, but it only generates tiff files, which will not post here. Be that as it may, the cartoon shows an elephant on a crutch, one hind leg a bandaged stump. He is talking on a pay phone, and saying, "WHAT?! They turned it into a wastebasket??"

Funny but sick.

To address acidbasement's assertion, I'm of the minority group on how we got here. He's an oozer, I'm a zapper. I won't even debate this or discuss it further, as few things bring the padlock faster than that...

Laz
post #38 of 55
only human horn is unethical
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barock View Post
That would probably be Ok, though there's really no reason to kill elephants for wallets etc. It's just mean.
Have you read the thread and my post!!! It is not from elephants, it is from cows and pressed with an elephant-like look. Hello!

Quote:
Originally Posted by penguindude View Post
The nature of the OP's question is one of politics, the politics of ethics. So it's kinda hard to keep it non-political.
Politics and ethics are two entirely different issues. This thread can remain politic-free if people don't want it closed.

If I go to a bank ATM and I go to make a transaction and B4 I start, the machine issues me $200, it is an ethical decision to give back to the bank, something that doesn't belong to me. It is not a political one.
It is also called "scruples".
Since a cow is bread and raised for it's meat and hide, then it's up to you whether or not you believe it's OK to support and utilize these actions. This is whether or not a government sanctions it. It is a personal belief, not a political one.

Also, please don't bring religious beliefs into this.

Politics and religion cause huge "un-win-able" arguements on Head-Fi and are against the TOU.
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by immtbiker View Post
Have you read the thread and my post!!! It is not from elephants, it is from cows and pressed with an elephant-like look. Hello!

...


Also, please don't bring religious beliefs into this.

Politics and religion cause huge "un-win-able" arguements on Head-Fi and are against the TOU.
Well of course we all know the thread got off topic, don't we? I thought we were just playin' around by this point.

Anyway, it seems that many philosophical and ethical discussions end up unresolved due to differences in fundamental assumptions - granted this is often due to differences in religion. I don't know how we can have philosophical arguments without returning eventually to these assumptions - not to argue about whose are best, but simply to acknowledge that they form the basis of our ethics, and perhaps to realize that we might have beliefs about what's right and wrong that do not flow logically from them.
post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidbasement View Post
Some will likely disagree here, but a huge community of scientists has all but proven (absolute proof being impossible) that every living entity on Earth is as it is as the result of evolution by natural selection - survival of the fittest, as some call it, but it's more about reproduction than survival. In other words, "we" are here because not every living being survives long enough to reproduce. If there were no death, "we" would still be a bunch of simple, self-replicating carbon-based molecules, completely incapable of having this discussion. Death is one of the most essential components of any ecosystem and any society - without it nothing we know would be recognizable. How, then, can anything, human or otherwise, me or you, have an intrinsic right to life?

I consider myself an environmentalist, and I would never willfully purchase something made from an endangered species, but I'm pretty sure that's mostly because I like seeing them alive, not because they have any intrinsic right not to be made into silly little trinkets for our petty enjoyment.
This is exactly how I feel about this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acidbasement View Post
Come on, are we having a debate or are we just repeating opinions ad nauseum? Luminette, we know you think killing things is wrong. Now tell us why, and be logical about it, or you will not convince anyone.

Steve, if I shoot a critter and leave it to the coyotes and maggots, does that satisfy your requirement that the life energy be passed on? I probably won't do it, but I'm curious anyway

This is kind of a fun thread.
Word. TWO quotes from you! You are too good, my friend.

AAAAAND I'm done posting in this ethical thread. I'll laugh at you all from the sidelines.
post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by immtbiker View Post
Have you read the thread and my post!!! It is not from elephants, it is from cows and pressed with an elephant-like look. Hello!



Politics and ethics are two entirely different issues. This thread can remain politic-free if people don't want it closed.

If I go to a bank ATM and I go to make a transaction and B4 I start, the machine issues me $200, it is an ethical decision to give back to the bank, something that doesn't belong to me. It is not a political one.
It is also called "scruples".
Since a cow is bread and raised for it's meat and hide, then it's up to you whether or not you believe it's OK to support and utilize these actions. This is whether or not a government sanctions it. It is a personal belief, not a political one.

Also, please don't bring religious beliefs into this.

Politics and religion cause huge "un-win-able" arguements on Head-Fi and are against the TOU.
This is rather disturbing on how mods are trying to dictate what we're discussing on an open forum - a place where people are supposedly free to express their views. I don't see why we cannot discuss politics while we are allowed to discuss ethics. We are neither using vulgar and disrespectful language nor are we resorting to petty personal attacks. I do not see a reason for you to lock this thread down. But if you wish, be my guest and go right ahead. If you are trying to unreasonably dictate what I can say, I'd rather not say it at all.
post #43 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by penguindude View Post
This is rather disturbing on how mods are trying to dictate what we're discussing on an open forum - a place where people are supposedly free to express their views. I don't see why we cannot discuss politics while we are allowed to discuss ethics. We are neither using vulgar and disrespectful language nor are we resorting to petty personal attacks. I do not see a reason for you to lock this thread down. But if you wish, be my guest and go right ahead. If you are trying to unreasonably dictate what I can say, I'd rather not say it at all.
This sticky has been there since 2005. If you don't like the rules, why did you register?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f11/no...llowed-244685/
post #44 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post
If the hides were harvested from naturally dead animals, would it be ok?
All the ebay seller needs to do is add this simple explanation...

The elephant used to make this wallet was not needlessly butchered for commercial reasons. You'll be happy to know that he died in a freak waterskiing accident.

See ya
Steve
post #45 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by penguindude View Post
This is rather disturbing on how mods are trying to dictate what we're discussing on an open forum...
... I do not see a reason for you to lock this thread down. But if you wish, be my guest and go right ahead. If you are trying to unreasonably dictate what I can say, I'd rather not say it at all.
First of all, I am not locking it down, I am being a mod and pointing out that (and I'll repeat):

Politics and religion cause huge "un-win-able" arguements on Head-Fi and are against the TOU.

Second of all, if I am (in your words) "trying to unreasonably dictate what I can say, I'd rather not say it at all" then why did you just say it, if you'd rather not say it at all. That is a contradiction of your own terms.

Usually, most forum rules are a result of previously unmanageable situations.

That, and the fact that this is an audio forum.
I'm sure there are plenty of other forums where you can talk about the politics of faux elephant skin products without being stiffled in your expressions.
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