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Placebo effects?

post #1 of 29
12/15/07 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
All the wars between the skeptic and the enlightened audio enthusiasts has got me thinkin. If I tell myself my HD580's are HE90's will they begin to sound like the HE90's?

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post #2 of 29
12/15/07 at 12:29pm
No, not unless you really believe it will happen, the placebo effect is due to the earnest expectation of a change rather than what you try to convince yourself of.

I don't think your question was well put, it comes across as borderline trolling.
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post #3 of 29
12/15/07 at 12:55pm
For it to really work, you'd first have to forget what the HE90 looks like, then get a friend to hand you a pair of 580s (you've forgotten what they look like too) and tell you it's the orpheus. Then you might feel that the 580s are better than they really are, if that makes any sense.
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post #4 of 29
12/15/07 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gritzcolin View Post
All the wars between the skeptic and the enlightened audio enthusiasts
Er, why do you think that skeptic excludes enlightened and that skeptic excludes "audio enthusiast".
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post #5 of 29
12/15/07 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gritzcolin View Post
All the wars between the skeptic and the enlightened audio enthusiasts has got me thinkin. If I tell myself my HD580's are HE90's will they begin to sound like the HE90's?
yes. i'm listening to my HE90 right now.
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post #6 of 29
12/15/07 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil101 View Post
No, not unless you really believe it will happen, the placebo effect is due to the earnest expectation of a change rather than what you try to convince yourself of.

I don't think your question was well put, it comes across as borderline trolling.
You're thinking what I'm thinking.

In my words: It's really more subconscious than conscious. That is, you actually have to truly believe that they will sound better than the HE90's, you can't just tell yourself they will.
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post #7 of 29
12/15/07 at 7:44pm
People use the term placebo as if it's some sort of magical hypnosis or moral failing, but that's totally wrong. The concept as it applies to audio is very simple and makes sense to everyone with a brain in their head...

When you try to determine the difference two very similar sources (that may or may not be identical) it's common for your mind to play tricks on you, suggesting a difference between the two that doesn't exist. It won't make black into white or up into down, but it can confuse the relationship between two identical shades of white, or something that is ever so slightly more up than another thing.

See ya
Steve
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post #8 of 29
12/15/07 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
People use the term placebo as if it's some sort of magical hypnosis or moral failing, but that's totally wrong. The concept as it applies to audio is very simple and makes sense to everyone with a brain in their head...

When you try to determine the difference two very similar sources (that may or may not be identical) it's common for your mind to play tricks on you, suggesting a difference between the two that doesn't exist. It won't make black into white or up into down, but it can confuse the relationship between two identical shades of white, or something that is ever so slightly more up than another thing.

See ya
Steve
x2
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post #9 of 29
12/15/07 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
yes. i'm listening to my HE90 right now.
LOL..I love it!!!
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post #10 of 29
12/15/07 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
People use the term placebo as if it's some sort of magical hypnosis or moral failing, but that's totally wrong. The concept as it applies to audio is very simple and makes sense to everyone with a brain in their head...

When you try to determine the difference two very similar sources (that may or may not be identical) it's common for your mind to play tricks on you, suggesting a difference between the two that doesn't exist. It won't make black into white or up into down, but it can confuse the relationship between two identical shades of white, or something that is ever so slightly more up than another thing.

See ya
Steve

I agree with most of what you are saying; subject expectancy effects are not a moral failing/magic, but I don't agree 100% with your definition.
Maybe this is the normal definition as it applies to audio but in medicine (specifically pharmacy) non-specific effects are defined as a change in condition due solely to the power of suggestion, it is all down to trust and belief, the physical pill/treatment is only a prop.
The patient/audiophile must completely believe that there will be a change for one to occur, unless the OP is a master of doublethink they cannot completely believe that there is a difference in their cans as they know, physically, there is none.
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post #11 of 29
12/15/07 at 8:31pm
I wouldn't doubt that there aren't quite a few masters of doublethink around here!

See ya
Steve
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post #12 of 29
12/15/07 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gritzcolin View Post
If I tell myself my HD580's are HE90's will they begin to sound like the HE90's?
Only if you think very hard...!
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post #13 of 29
12/16/07 at 12:14pm
Thread Starter 
I was really trying to figure out how placebo effects can apply to something like a source, headphone, or amplifier or does it just boil down to ignorance on behalf of the user? If it could be applied how so?

Only instances I can think of are the Sennheiser DSP Pro and the Bose 321. It isn't surround sound but they do sound like the audio is surrounding you the DSP is more so confusing. Are they placebos or is there actual technology at work? If it is technology it would seem to me that it's still a placebo effect or do psycho-accoustics not count?

I have just confused myself my apologies if none of that made sense.
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post #14 of 29
12/16/07 at 1:35pm
all i know is if i am trying to A/B an amp after changing op-amps or similar situation, i have to try and sort the wheat from the chaff, meaning i have to come to a decision of whether there was enough differential between the two contesting op-amps to warrant my conclusion that there indeed was or if placebo is at its devilsome play.

thats why i usually spend several days at different times listening to two comapritives, rather than deciding in one sitting.
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post #15 of 29
12/16/07 at 2:23pm
I DO think we all pretty much know what is being talked about in this thread generally, but why, why, why must you call it "placebo"? That is so misleading and over-specific. Basil101's "non-specific effects" is much more apt since there are many more sources of what we are talking about than suggestion or believing too hard or wanting making it so. Placebo is not even a good term for those in this context since it has a clear meaning in medical science which is not so completely analogous. Also its use in this arena conveys a moral, critical, or demeaning connotation about failing to be objective or being a patsy to salesmen and ads. Everyones perception is the product of many other factors in addition to the physical stimulus ALWAYS and for EVERYONE so of course anyone can be "fooled" about musical sources or their comparison in many ways, most of them not faintly like a "placebo".
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