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A foray into the world of vinyl - Page 3

post #31 of 66
1/10/08 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by double LL View Post
The problem could be from the old pulley,maybe it was a little out of round.I am buying a new pulley replacement for the motor shaft.I was checking it out and the thing broke ,as if it was brittle and old.It seems like it was made out of very thin plastic.I bought the table used ,so you know what you can run into.I hope the replacement will be a improvement matirial wise.
These motors are pretty cheap to replace, about 30UKP for an Philips one here so I'm sure someone somewhere in the USA has the original spares for whatever yours uses as it's likely to be an American one if built there.

Make sure you get the height correct when you glue the new spindle and hold it with some sort of clamp so you don't put any pressure on the motor shaft if necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by double LL View Post
This BIC is American manufactured,with the basic British mechanical desing I assume.The one feature that stands out on this one compaired to other BICs that I have seen is that the pitch control is on the outer face of the table with a adjustable mirror to make it easier to see the strobe. I am suprised you did'nt name a BIC in your low budget vinyl source thread .I have heard that the BIC 1000s are a great table.I just think BIC TTs are one of the best "forgotten ones "that are still available.Thanks Memepool ,I will take your advise.LL
The ones I saw reviewed in old UK mags from this period didn't do so well as I remember. It could have been because they were re-imported from the USA and therefore too expensive here perhaps.

But it could also be that they just weren't as good as the Japanese competition at the time. The late '70s was the lowest ebb for British industry generally when many of the old Hi-Fi stalwarts like Garrard, Ferrograph and Leak went out of business because they just couldn't compete manufacturing locally anymore.
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post #32 of 66
1/10/08 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by memepool View Post
These motors are pretty cheap to replace, about 30UKP for an Philips one here so I'm sure someone somewhere in the USA has the original spares for whatever yours uses as it's likely to be an American one if built there.

Make sure you get the height correct when you glue the new spindle and hold it with some sort of clamp so you don't put any pressure on the motor shaft if necessary.



The ones I saw reviewed in old UK mags from this period didn't do so well as I remember. It could have been because they were re-imported from the USA and therefore too expensive here perhaps.

But it could also be that they just weren't as good as the Japanese competition at the time. The late '70s was the lowest ebb for British industry generally when many of the old Hi-Fi stalwarts like Garrard, Ferrograph and Leak went out of business because they just couldn't compete manufacturing locally anymore.
The motor is fine,it is the pulley replacement that slips over the motor shaft that is the problem.It is a basic replaceable service part.I beleive the motors in the BICs will run on and on because they were made to run slow and easy,and rebuild kits are available too.You are right about the Japanese electronics,they had the looks ,especialy their TTs of the mid 70s and on, ,and the quality.The BICs looked old fashioned and outdated and they kept the" record changer" feature too long ,but mechanicaly I think they are a workhorse,but not much to look at,as far as style.I have a Technics SL-B2 that needs a new motor.Do you know where I can buy one because panasonic has discontinued this motor?The part number is SFMHB20-01E.
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post #33 of 66
1/10/08 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by double LL View Post
The BICs looked old fashioned and outdated and they kept the" record changer" feature too long ,but mechanicaly I think they are a workhorse,but not much to look at,as far as style.
.
All I am saying is I wouldn't blow too much money on renovating something like that because it probably wasn't all that great to begin with and there are plenty of really lovely old decks out there going begging which have much more potential and are far more deserving of a makeover.
If I lived in the States I'd be very tempted by the old idler driven broadcast stuff from the 1950s like the Rek-O-Kut, Hales, Fairchild, RCA, Empire etc... which seem to be still fairly reasonablely priced compared to the likes of Thorens or Garrard from the same period.
Actually some of the Garrard autochangers which were far more common in the USA than over here look fairly promising too. I'm sure you could easily find one of these in a trashed old gramophone cabinet and transplant it to a modern plinth, then fit a new Rega tonearm alongside the original one to have the best of both worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by double LL View Post
I have a Technics SL-B2 that needs a new motor.Do you know where I can buy one because panasonic has discotinued this motor?The part nuber is SFMHB20-01E.
Sorry no idea. I'd be surprised if the motor was any different to that used in their more modern belt drives like the BD22 though. You are probably best off just finding another one for spares.

Again though I wouldn't sweat it as this was one of the lower end machines so you'll probably be able to get something better for the same money you'll spend on trying to rejuvenate this one.
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post #34 of 66
1/10/08 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by memepool View Post
If I lived in the States I'd be very tempted by the old idler driven broadcast stuff from the 1950s like the Rek-O-Kut, Hales, Fairchild, RCA, Empire etc... which seem to be still fairly reasonablely priced compared to the likes of Thorens or Garrard from the same period.
This is a great idea in theory ....BUT currently working on a Rek-O-Kut B12 and also converting a Collaro changer ,I am really starting to think that working on these old idler drives is a real pain in the rear. The biggest problem of course is getting rid of the noise. I guess time will tell. I hope it is worth it and it may very well be, but I am starting to have my doubts.
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post #35 of 66
1/10/08 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekbmn View Post
This is a great idea in theory ....BUT currently working on a Rek-O-Kut B12 and also converting a Collaro changer ,I am really starting to think that working on these old idler drives is a real pain in the rear. The biggest problem of course is getting rid of the noise. I guess time will tell. I hope it is worth it and it may very well be, but I am starting to have my doubts.
The autochangers I imagine would be pretty fiddly but I'm pretty envious of the B12. They look very cool and I've almost been temptred to import one a few times.
Some people over here go to ridiculous degrees buying slate plinths etc for their Garrard 301/401 but if you are handy at woodwork then I'd have thought a layered ply plinth would be straightforward enough. No idea about the motor isolation though.
I have an old Lenco idler which sounds pretty impressive even in the stock plinth but that is a project waiting for some upgrades.
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post #36 of 66
1/10/08 at 6:21pm
"All I am saying is I wouldn't blow too much money on renovating something like that because it probably wasn't all that great to begin with and there are plenty of really lovely old decks out there going begging which have much more potential and are far more deserving of a makeover. "
Oh no ,I am not looking into a high dollar restoration of a old BIC.I am just interested in keeping it to listen to once in a while.I know they are not up there in the bliss of audiophile heaven ,but as I said before ,I realy like the heavy platter with the thick heavy mat.Their tone arms were known for almost no tracking error.Their motors were some of the best.Maybe they were'nt "all that great",but they will still spin a lp and make it sound good with out any added noise.Rim drives are known for too much rumble I've been told.I had a Garrard 440 about 33 years ago,that sounded like a freight train during the quiet parts of the music.Those tables were the bottom of the line of Garrards with rim drive I think.Where I would go for a top dollar restoration,maybe I would go with a Marantz 6300, Thorens,Empire,Dual,or something very obscure like a KLH TT.There is alot to choose from.BY the way,I do like my SL-B2. LL
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post #37 of 66
1/11/08 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekbmn View Post
This is a great idea in theory ....BUT currently working on a Rek-O-Kut B12 and also converting a Collaro changer ,I am really starting to think that working on these old idler drives is a real pain in the rear. The biggest problem of course is getting rid of the noise. I guess time will tell. I hope it is worth it and it may very well be, but I am starting to have my doubts.
I don't know what approach you are using to rebuild your Rek-O-Kut B12.I believe the best approach is to rotate the table so that the top is on the right side.You then mount a modern tonearm on the new plinth on the new right side.The top plate is designed to screw into a wooden frame from a thin flat area along the 4 outer edges.This does not allow enough contact area in my opinion.The ideal solution would be to inlet the casting ribs on the bottom of the top plate into the new plinth.This wound allow for a smaller hole for the motor and mechanical parts and allow much more surface contact between the top plate and plinth.You would then glass bed the top plate to the plinth after a generous coating of release agent.This process is identical to glass bedding a barreled action into a gunstock so gunstock bedding compound is what you want to use.I have not seen anyone use this exact approach to a ROK Rondine yet so how this fine turntable compares to a heavy Lenco a Garrard 301/401 is any one's guess.
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post #38 of 66
1/11/08 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by double LL View Post
Oh no ,I am not looking into a high dollar restoration of a old BIC.I am just interested in keeping it to listen to once in a while.I know they are not up there in the bliss of audiophile heaven ,but as I said before ,I realy like the heavy platter with the thick heavy mat.Their tone arms were known for almost no tracking error.Their motors were some of the best.Maybe they were'nt "all that great",but they will still spin a lp and make it sound good with out any added noise.
Fair enough. It's a slippery slope though. I have too many turntables in various states of renovation already though so I am trying a new years resolution. " I must not buy any more turntables" ....unless they are rare of course


Quote:
Originally Posted by double LL View Post
Rim drives are known for too much rumble I've been told.I had a Garrard 440 about 33 years ago,that sounded like a freight train during the quiet parts of the music.Those tables were the bottom of the line of Garrards with rim drive I think.Where I would go for a top dollar restoration,maybe I would go with a Marantz 6300, Thorens,Empire,Dual,or something very obscure like a KLH TT.There is alot to choose from.BY the way,I do like my SL-B2. LL
Rumble is mainly down to poor understanding of plinth design and adequate isolation. Most of these old decks are just screwed to a bit of wood, often in the case of the standard gramophone they are in effect screwed to a speaker baffle
A simple properly isolated modern DIY plinth, of which there are dozens of patterns for and examples of on the net, will work wonders. Some of the old motor coupling and mounting designs were better than others of course but the whole "idler is bad" thing is just another example of marketing by companies making belt drives ( which shall remain nameless) akin to the " direct drive is bad" bias . Mostly nonsense.
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post #39 of 66
1/11/08 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
The sound quality from the Rega p2 and p3 decks will be superior to a stock Technics 1200 deck due to their better stock tonearms which are legendary.If no upgrade path is desired down the road,then the Rega decks are perfectly acceptable.The reason that the Technics 1200 is the better choice is that it is a far superior deck to any Rega deck regardless of cost.All one has to do is install a Rega 250 tonearm or better to a Technics 1200 turntable which takes about an hour and you end up with a Rega giant killer.The installation is really quite easy.The direct drive Technics is also much more user friendly than all belt drive tables which all kind of suck in this regard regardless of price.The platter doesn't slow down when cleaning off a record and you can increase the platter speed instantaneously to 45 RPM with a single pop of the 45 button.
FWIW: Hifi World magazine in the UK have recently done some articles on this: several of their writers use a 1200. Might be worth emailing them..
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post #40 of 66
1/11/08 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniks7 View Post
FWIW: Hifi World magazine in the UK have recently done some articles on this: several of their writers use a 1200. Might be worth emailing them..
Hi sniks:I already have a Technics 1200 MK2 taken beyond Hifi World magazine including an Origin Live Silver tonearm and KABUSA power supply.I suppose they should email me.It is an excellent turntable well worth working with and should not be taken lightly due to its direct drive system.BTW,direct drives and rim drives really have an advantage over belt drives in terms of controlling the platter.Belt drives are potentially quieter and less costly to manufacture.How quiet is quiet enough? Lots of Garrard and Lenco rebuilders out there are going to a lot of effort to get the noise out of these machines because they really feel that belt drive tables are not good enough for the sound they are looking for.
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post #41 of 66
1/11/08 at 7:42pm
One of the sweetest sounds I ever heard was a garrard 300 with an sme (and a leak st 20 and esl57).

Then again, the sme30 sounds fabulous too and that's belted.. What really makes a difference is whether the arm is damped properly at the cartridge end.

Anyway, that's what I say to myself to justify waiting three months for my Rock to come back from Max Towshend! :-)
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post #42 of 66
1/11/08 at 8:16pm
I have never understood why audiophiles knock down the SL1200. It has to be one of the best values out there.

The noise issue is non-existant (on at least 20 tables I have heard) and should just be considered a rumour. They are rugged and the sound they put out, especially with a good cart, is quite good.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #43 of 66
1/12/08 at 1:05am
Thread Starter 
The craziness ensues.

So what do you think does best the Technics?
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post #44 of 66
1/12/08 at 1:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejr View Post
The craziness ensues.

So what do you think does best the Technics?
Its a heavy rugged well made turntable that silently plays recordings at the correct speed in a very user friendly manner.
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post #45 of 66
1/12/08 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
I don't know what approach you are using to rebuild your Rek-O-Kut B12.I believe the best approach is to rotate the table so that the top is on the right side.You then mount a modern tonearm on the new plinth on the new right side.
Nope... not with the ROKs.They differ from the Garrards and Thorens in that the top plate is (strangely) the better spot to mount the tonearm.I can't explain it nor has anyone else been able to , but they have a rather weird trait about them in that the top plate is pretty vibration free and yet still manages to tranfer it to the plinth.(and in turn is NOT vibration and noise free) I know it sounds rather strange but it is true and I have confirmed it through some experiments for myself. At this point I have a new idea up my sleeve for it as far as plinths go and will post pics when it comes to fruition.The table will have an Audioquest PT-9 mounted on it.
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