Stop recommending gear you've never heard: rant warning - Page 20

I'm very reluctant to post in threads where a lot of noobs have obviously posted recommendation they know nothing about.  I've had a couple of bad experiences when I post something contrary to the popular regurgitation.    If I see the thread before it gets too many posts, I post.  Otherwise I just stay away. 

One thing I try to always qualify my experience with is that I'm 51.  I have good hearing for 51, but I'm still not going to hear the same high end as a 20 year old. 

I'm quite active in that giant newbies recommendation thread in the main forum, although in the grand scheme of things I still consider myself somewhat of a newcomer. Granted, I'm a newbie who's gone through a fair share of gear and organizes local meets, so I've at least expanded my palette so to speak. When I give recommendations for gear, I almost always stick to those I've owned/heard, or maybe stretch that and recommend others within the same family if I'm fairly confident that they all share similar characteristics. On rare occasion I recommend stuff I've never heard, but I qualify my statements and clearly state that I'm just repeating opinions that I've read from others. If anything, I have a bit of anti-FOTM streak in me (or maybe I just simply dislike the M50 ). If I can't answer a question, then I simply don't answer or I point to a more useful thread or perhaps advise them to contact a specific member.

Boy did I get jumped on when I said the K601 and DT880 250 sounded pretty damn close to me.  I can't hear those peaks in the treble of the DT880 so they are very pleasant headphones for me.  The younger head-fiers thought I was nuts.  That's when I realized I had to include my age.

Could you speak a little lower, my 62 year old ears don't even get high when I overdose on my medication.

I have crazy bat-like hearing and I also have perfect pitch. I curse these attributes more often than not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom 

In spite of what some might think, most folks who have been around here for a while are more than happy to make recommendations about gear that they've heard.  Some of the more useful threads are the review threads by members who have experienced a lot of gear.  We have quite a few that do...Skylab does a nice job, for example.  I wish I had more time to do so, as it's something that I really enjoy and I've had a lot of gear over the last 10 years or so.  There's a lot of knowledge accumulated out there in various threads, all one need do is search for it a bit.  I also feel like our more experienced members are generally those who are willing to help out in threads where newer members are seeking some help.  Folks like that tend to have some investment in the site, and remember what it was like to be a new member.

The very active recommendation thread I started a few months back stated Head-Fier's willingness to share experience and impart wisdom in the original post. Armaegis and a handful of others maintain that thread to their credit. Members with extensive experience have generally avoided that thread like the plague, despite the bold claims in the op of a helpful community. Understandable, but disappointing non the less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armaegis 

I'm quite active in that giant newbies recommendation thread in the main forum, although in the grand scheme of things I still consider myself somewhat of a newcomer. Granted, I'm a newbie who's gone through a fair share of gear and organizes local meets, so I've at least expanded my palette so to speak. When I give recommendations for gear, I almost always stick to those I've owned/heard, or maybe stretch that and recommend others within the same family if I'm fairly confident that they all share similar characteristics. On rare occasion I recommend stuff I've never heard, but I qualify my statements and clearly state that I'm just repeating opinions that I've read from others. If anything, I have a bit of anti-FOTM streak in me (or maybe I just simply dislike the M50 ). If I can't answer a question, then I simply don't answer or I point to a more useful thread or perhaps advise them to contact a specific member.

^ This guy deserves massive props.

Not to be a schmuck but sometimes the more informed on here are just as problematic as the newbies. The point I wish everyone to understand is when newbies come here and begin reading reviews from members such as Skylab, Jude or Boomana depending on the review it's almost like trying to decipher a strange foreign language. For example when I started coming on here I had no clue what was meant by darker sounding or bright sounding. I had no idea what bottom end slam was or PRAT or rolled off highs or forward sounding mids or what a neutral sound was. Eventually I figured it out by sheer trial and error and listening to different gear at various stores and just investing the time reading as many posts as I could. I'm not slamming any of the users above it's just sometimes I wish various reviews were written in a more straight forward manner geared more towards the novice. I also wish more people would make it clear that many of their findings are based on conjecture based on their tastes.

For example the Burson 160D DAC/amp is marketed as a neutral amp but on here enough users have stated its a neutral amp leaning towards the warmer side. Because of these statements many newbies are left wondering what exactly is considered a true neutral amp? It even gets more complicated when other users on here who like their gear on the overly warm side begin throwing statements out that its not warm sounding its neutral. Another example is the current Beyer DT1350 thread. I asked for impressions on the 1350's sound signature and so far I've gotten a plethora of comments ranging from its got great bass extension to its bass shy. From checking on past comments and profiles of these users I've come to the conclusion that the crowd commenting that the 1350's are bass shy are mostly bass heads. Does that make their comments invalid, of coarse not. Bass heads aren't looking for a truly balanced sound signature and to them a balanced can with no bass slam is bass shy. For someone like me who isn't looking for a bassy set of cans and prefers a more balanced across the sound spectrum presentation I doubt I would find certain headphones bass shy. I own Grado's SR60i's and to me I don't find them overly bright yet so many others do. For me the bass for the music I play on my Grado's is exactly where I want it and the highs to my ears are not overly shrill. When I want an overly bassy presentation I have bass heavy Sony's I use for that type of music.

I've been able to piece together the information I've needed by investing the time and researching all threads and comments on particular products. The problem is when we have so many novice users on here with their 200, 300, 400 bucks looking for the proper can for themselves it can be like trying to navigate a labyrinth. So what happens is out of pure frustration the novice user just follows the crowd and don't bother to open themselves up to other views and products. I cant even begin to count how many times I've come on here seen a younger novice member ask for a good headphone that can do rock and hip hop and they always seem to get the answer get the M50. There's other cans out there that can do better but the novice can't or won't open themselves up to other possibilities due to the confusing jargon used by the more experienced members or the conflicting posts on the exact same product. The end result is someone who spent his/her hard earned money only to be disappointed in their purchase and doesn't bother coming back here again because he/she thinks everyone on here has no idea what they're talking about.

I'm not trying to insult anyone especially our more seasoned members. I'm just throwing my two cents into the discussion hoping to generate a more clearer picture of some of the problems some of the community has experienced.

Bless \m/

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom 

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that only folks who are fortunate enough to have owned pretty much everything are qualified to comment.  What people are saying is that when folks feel compelled to comment on gear that they haven't heard, it's typically of no value and tends to clog up the forums.

 

As I had said, this has been going on forever.  For example, back in the good old days, anytime anyone was looking to purchase an amp, a handful of folks would invariably chime in that they should get a DIY Meta42.  Said that it was the greatest thing ever, and that spending money on anything else (especially something by - gasp! - HeadRoom) was just a waste.  Setting aside for a moment that money spent on an amp from an established manufacturer might have its own benefits, what invariably ended up happening is that at least half of the people who recommended the Meta42 had NEVER EVEN HEARD either the Meta42 or the amp that they were saying was such a waste of money.

 

I think a big part of this is a certain Flavor of the Month sort of groupthink amongs members in general, but particularly (no offense intended) newer/less experienced members.  It has been and remains a mystery why people feel compelled to do this.  It's not a crime to be limited in your experiences...is hearing the sound of one's own (written) voice so important?

 

* For the record, I heard a lot of different Meta42's back in the day, and if you had a good builder it was a pretty good amp. 

 

 

It's I guess a natural part of wanting to belong. So you as it were, hold your finger up and read which way the wind is blowing. The problem as I'm sure many have pointed out before is that especially in a large forum, this skews the community groupthink in a way that would be different to if those with a controlled degree of experience held opinions.

And I'm not talking about ownership of phones when I say e.g. meets are worthless in terms of qualified opinions. There's a lot of apparently slightly green-eyed resentment when it comes to this matter. It's more an approach to evaluation, a frame of mind to attempt to control the factors that will influence your opinions, no matter how experienced an evaluator you believe yourself to be.

While it is likely true that the more stuff you can afford, the more you can afford to take this sort of approach - by e.g. in my case, constantly re-buying control headphones, hiring artificial heads, etc - but it's not ultimately about what you can amass, the frame of mind is far more important: Those with plenty of gear are not immune to this at all, and no meet I've read of or been to have ever attempted to control the listening / evaluating environment even for shizznits & giggles..

To that view, many would dismiss it and say 'well, I like to enjoy music more and I don't hear by controlled results', I would say in which case your held opinions are subject to pretty much every whim out there and has comparatively little point as the basis of involved discussion of the merits of a particular product, except to feed into a peer-group collection. No-one is saying that you have to listen to music in this manner all the time. It is simply that when you discuss something with someone else for the potential benefit of a third party, you need to have a baseline that you can share with each other to come up with something approaching a collectively worthwhile opinion - otherwise it's just egos butting against each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cifani090 

I think that was also very well said. With me, i feel that i should of started on Head-Fi back is 2003. I do recommend gear that i have not heard, only because i have read hundreds of reviews and impressions and take into consideration what other people like. I like helping out the newer crowd because i know that well established members like Jude and Skylab wont be able to do that for every member. They try there best, but they have a life and they have to balance it between their family and Head-Fi

 

Rather than recommend, I would say you should suggest. I know it is semantics, but there is an important difference.

For example, someone wants leakless, closed backed headphones,

"I have not heard the AKG K271, but would recommend it" suggests an impression of the overall sound quality, comfort etc

"I have not heard the AKG K271, but would suggest you give it a try" is sticking to the leakless and closed backed requirements as it leaves other aspects unqualified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man 

Rather than recommend, I would say you should suggest. I know it is semantics, but there is an important difference.

 

For example, someone wants leakless, closed backed headphones,

 

"I have not heard the AKG K271, but would recommend it" suggests an impression of the overall sound quality, comfort etc

 

"I have not heard the AKG K271, but would suggest you give it a try" is sticking to the leakless and closed backed requirements as it leaves other aspects unqualified.

 

Thank Rock Man, ill take the advice and change my tactics to suggestions not recommendations. 

Very good thread and an enjoyable read.

So many points are very true and I would like to say a few things.

The experience of buying headphones and audiophile equipment varies between countries. Definately. Here in london, so many of the headphones are nowhere to be seen on high street stores or even specialist audio shops. I can't even find a place in london where I can demo studio headphones just to experience their fit. And I reckon this playes an understated role in FOTM's birth and death.

Anyway, this makes buying headfi stuff even more difficult given the subjectivity factor.

Do any of you (seriously) play tennis?

I liken shopping here to shopping for a tennis racket. Before you give any impression on it, to others AND yourself even, you have to have played a few games with it. My point is, that internet reviews only answer for me 'which one should i try.'

Now, after going though a few rackets and changing as a player, I'd call myself a baseliner who is comfortable in generating his own power for shots. And so I prefer a racket with better control.

The other day though, my mate asked me to recommend a powerful enough racket for him.

'I haven't a clue mate; you'll have to try a few and see'

His response: 'There's hundreds of them- surely you should know'

(haven't come across a racket called 'm50' yet).. 'lets have a game so that we can compare how we play, then I'll suggest some'

The point is there exists similarly so little that's not personalised in audio. So much depends on what the reviewer AND myself, describes as bass heavy/muddy, airy, open and especially 'detailed.' On top of that factoring in how they approached that decision makes quite a few recommendations redundant to me.

I was recommended a 'flexible' racket that i found way too stiff.

The a900 people tout as the most comfortable headphones the've ever tried. For me the opposite is true.

The d2k leak sound like ####. I didn't find them to leak no way near this level.

The dt770/80 sibilance is painful out of a fiio. What sibilance??

That's why i like the 'vs' threads, especially IjokerI killer comparison ones. So much of headfi is relative and he keeps it that way. Most importantly, owning a few iems that he reviews opens me up suddenly to x+ others, because it's the same reviewer. I now know how the reviewers definition's of sound compare to mine. In other words, I know how I play and how he does, and so can understand other comparisons and make better purchases.

With closed full size can's there are plenty of comparison threads, so purchases here are similar.

BUT with amps and dacs. Blimey. For me it's a different ball game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab 

I have a theory as to why newbies tend to be most rabid FOTM followers - there is a degree to which this gives them a certain perceived credibility. For the noob who is looking to become an active participant on the forums, owning the hot current product allows relative newcomers to be a part of the excitement of a new product.  Unfortunately, lacking a basis of proper comparison, they really have no alternative in most cases but to be very enthusiastic about what they are hearing, as it very likely IS better than anything they have heard.

 

There are some ways in which experience really is the only teacher, and there are ways in which the best comparisons do, by necessity, come from members who have heard the widest variety of gear, and in more than just very short doses.  This is not a matter of denigrating newbies - it is just the very nature of experience, and the nature of comparative subjective opinions in general.

 

BTW: I did this very thing way back when.  Right around the time I joined, the original HF-1 was FOTM.  I bought one so I could join the conversation.  But having only owned the HD-650 before, my ability to comment critically on the HF-1 was much more limited than the more experienced members here.

 

x2. Well said.

I'd guess that most people who have problems with headphones leaking are just listening too loud, especially for a semi closed headphone like the d2k.

There are also very few places in the US to try out headphones.  I know New York has a few.  I'm surprised there isn't at least one in London, at least for low to mid range stuff.  I know the rest of Europe has listening stations in stores like FNAC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton 

I'd guess that most people who have problems with headphones leaking are just listening too loud, especially for a semi closed headphone like the d2k.

 

There are also very few places in the US to try out headphones.  I know New York has a few.  I'm surprised there isn't at least one in London, at least for low to mid range stuff.  I know the rest of Europe has listening stations in stores like FNAC.

Oh right, I thought there would be more places in the states. Especially with 'I checked this out at my local guitar centre' statements rather common.

For london though, it's surprising. If anyone knows of one in existance now, please tell me!

I did another circle of central london a few weeks ago, including the electronics street of tottenham court road and the best I could find was a few beats/bose and the occasional b&w P5. Though once out of the blue, I tried on a sennheiser 595 at a PC shop.

The one or two places I found that do stock a few high end grados and sennheisers, obviously won't let people demo them. The guy laughed and even was offended when I asked if I could demo some shure 115's!!