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The Apple diyMod: My Take on the Famous iMod [56k killer] Featuring 3G, 4G, 5G and nano 1G! - Page 122

post #1816 of 2490
Ok, first up I apologise in advance for asking this question, I have read several questions and answers, even some extremely informative answers from people featuring formulas to work out which capicator to use but anything above and beyond simple maths is beyond me.

I have seen several pictures on these forums of people's diy and indeed purchased imod docks and lods all using different caps and different values.

I understand electrolytic black gates are about the best of its type for its size and thus use in a lod, and for that I am getting some black gate NX HiQ 47μF 6.3V.

However, I am also interested in performing an iriver diymod and am also interested in making a larger dock for an apple 5gen ipod video diymod something along the lines of a vcap dock but not using vcaps.

I have searched and read through post after post, and the bottom line appears to be any rated cap pretty much. Then I read comments how the 47uf features better bass response than the 22uf black gate and am back to square one in deciding what kind of caps I need to be buying for my different applications.

If anyone could help I would be greatly appreciative, apparently amp input impedence etc has to be taken account of too. How the hell do I find out what my amps input impedences are etc. It's entering into proper technical areas now and I need some assistance with it. Ive seen caps at 0.47uf and 0.22 presumably these are not what I want, yet the bigger physical sized caps seem to come in smaller values such as a vcap rated at say 4.7uf

whats the minimum value cap I could get and use safely~?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Apple 30 GB iPod with Video Playback Black (5th Generation)
iPod Nano Headset Music Player
Apple iPod classic 160 GB Black (6th Generation) OLD MODEL
post #1817 of 2490
Thread Starter 
As you mentioned, almost any cap will work, but different kinds of ratings for those capacitors will affect the sound differently. The diyMod output coupling capacitor and the input impedance, sometimes input resistance, of your amplifier form a high pass filter, which means that high frequency signals, eg. cymbals crashing, pass through without being disturbed, but lower frequency signals are muted, where the cutoff begins and the how much it attenuates the signal depends on the characteristics of the filter. If you have a deep desire to learn more about filters, Google it or check out pages like All About Circuits : Free Electric Circuits Textbooks. I'll try to keep it to the basics.

The -3dB frequency can be found using the equation that you've likely seen before, f=1/(2*pi*R*C). This frequency is the lowest audible frequency allowed by the filter, so it would behoove you to make it lower than 20Hz, the lowest audible frequency for most humans. R and C are the variables in the equation, where, for our purposes, R is the input impedance of your amplifier and C is the capacitance of the diyMod's output capacitor. Basically, the higher R and C are, the more bass information you will get. This fact explains why with the 47uF Black Gate capacitor, assuming you're using the same amplifier, you will get more bass than with the 22uF capacitor.

To find your amp's input impedance, there are several ways of going about it. First, you can measure it with meters and resistors, but what you can also do is search for it on the internet. What kind of amp are you using? If it's a commercial product, that information is usually listed online. What amp are you using?

What you also have to consider is the quality of the capacitor. You're usually looking for ESR, or equivalent resistance, and you want this number to be low. This is because capacitors pass AC current, and the low the resistance, the easier the signal passes through. This also entails considering the type of dielectric used in the capacitor, be it film, polypropylene, ceramic, tantalum. Typically the film types are better for sound, but they don't have a lot of capacitance for their size compared to electrolytics. Electrolytics are supposed to be much slower in sound than the films, but they have lots of capacitance and lower your filter's -3db frequency.

What you need to decide on is a capacitor line and a capacitance value, not necessarily in that order. Some choose the Black Gates and pick the capacitance and some pick the amount of capacitance and see which brand and series has the best sound. The voltage rating doesn't matter so much.

Best of luck.
post #1818 of 2490
Thanks for taking the time out to go through this with me, I appreciate the basic steps and explanation you have given me and it is starting to make more sense now as to how (and indeed why) I would choose certain cap values over another.

That is indeed the same formula I have spotted before, I even downloaded the diymod corner frequency calculator, but before you just explained the idea of the filter and the amp input impedance and diymod capacitance, I was totally lost in a sea of technical terms with no way "in" to learning or trying to understand them in relation to each other and the wider context of applying that knowledge.

The amps I will be using are either a little dot II or for portables which will be iqube or ibasso d10.

I do have a multimeter so presumably that would be one way to measure the amps input impedance but again, I wouldn't know where to start by actually doing this. Beats the crap outta me how you guys follow traces and establish the points on the logic board which are suitable for diymodding.
post #1819 of 2490
Thread Starter 
To find the input impedance, hook up a signal generator and potentiometer in series with the amplifier input. Short circuit the potentiometer, measure the voltage of the input signal, then turn up the resistance of the potentiometer until the voltage after the pot is half the voltage of the input signal. If you don't have a signal generator, you can just get a relatively large capacitor and assume the input impedance is 10k. That way you can safely assume the filter corner frequency won't be a problem, even if the input impedance ends up being 10k. 47uF will be more than sufficient for almost all intents and purposes.

The iQube input impedance is 10k. I can't access the Little Dot website at work (shows up as a malicious website), and the iBasso D10 doesn't have any info on its website.
post #1820 of 2490
You sir are an absolute diamond of a fella.

I will be sure to post pics once I have done the mod and made the lod etc, just waiting for parts to come in now.

Thank you so much for all your help, and indeed the vast and rich resource that is this thread too.

Invaluable.
post #1821 of 2490
maaaannnnyyy DIYpodssssss......
post #1822 of 2490
Thread Starter 
That's quite an impressive stack you've got, EFN. I have a similar one in my workshop, but they're all broken.
post #1823 of 2490
Quote:
Originally Posted by joneeboi View Post
That's quite an impressive stack you've got, EFN. I have a similar one in my workshop, but they're all broken.
Thanks. I am surprised you have not built a FrankenPod from the bits and pieces yet
post #1824 of 2490
5g diymod.

Has anyone gone directly from the wolfson wm8978 (8758 equivalent apparently) pin 23 rout2 and pin 25 lout2 to pins 3 and 4 on the dock connector?

Is there any problems/issues with this other than the usual difficulty of soldering?

I am presuming using lout2 and rout2 is to save the headphone out found in lout1 and rout1 thus maintaining headphone out capability as well as diymod line out capability?
post #1825 of 2490
Thread Starter 
EFN:

Most of those logic boards either don't have line out pads anymore or don't turn on anymore. The closest thing I have to a frankenPod is a 4G click wheel half-converted to a 4G photo. I never completed it because there were so many little things I had to buy that I didn't feel like continuing. You can call it lazy, but I just didn't have the money at the time. And now, well, I just don't have the desire.

dazzer:

You are correct, sir. That's pretty much the de facto way of doing the diyMod 5G. I believe that's what the iMod does as well, but I'never having seen the inside of an iMod, I'm only speculating. One warning I'll give you is to leave in those little capacitors and the dock inductors and solder to those things instead of to just those pads. As I mentioned to EFN, I have many a logic board unable to produce sound anymore because I lifted the audio pads. Leave the L's and C's in and you'll protect your diyMod without even the need for glue or epoxy. There's no need to go through the process of procuring a new logic board. It causes too much pain to the heart.

The "either / or" situation between the headphone jack and dock is merely illusory in that the iMod 4G was set up this way. That's one way of doing it, but you can choose whatever way you want with the diyMod. You know, I'm going to insert that into my signature since I'm repeating it so much. I hope people get the point. Nothing against you, dazzer, but I just get that question a lot. =T
post #1826 of 2490
Quote:
Originally Posted by joneeboi View Post

dazzer:

You are correct, sir. That's pretty much the de facto way of doing the diyMod 5G. I believe that's what the iMod does as well, but I'never having seen the inside of an iMod, I'm only speculating. One warning I'll give you is to leave in those little capacitors and the dock inductors and solder to those things instead of to just those pads.
I was thinking of avoiding soldering to those at all, and to simply solder directly from pins 23 and 25 on the dac chip and route the wires direct to the female dock onto pins 3 and 4.

Alternatively, I could solder to the caps and inductors (the two with z just above the dac and L2 AND L3)

I was thinking this could be an either/or scenario. Of course though, if after re-assessing my initial plan of soldering straight from the dac pins to the dock pins, I shall try the other method re from the two z points to the L2 and L3 points without trying to remove them as the fear of lifting the pads is whats driving my desire to solder directly from dac to dock.


Quote:
The "either / or" situation between the headphone jack and dock is merely illusory in that the iMod 4G was set up this way. That's one way of doing it, but you can choose whatever way you want with the diyMod. You know, I'm going to insert that into my signature since I'm repeating it so much. I hope people get the point. Nothing against you, dazzer, but I just get that question a lot. =T
Ah ok, and absolutely no problem or offence, I am more than aware that I am liable to ask many pointless and frivolous questions, partly from the fact that I some times dont trust my own judgement, and partly because it is always infiinitely better to bounce ideas and garner advice and suggestions from others just to make absolutely sure.
post #1827 of 2490
Thread Starter 
Ya, no worries, man. Sorry, that's what I meant, solder straight from the Z caps to L2 and L3. I've soldered straight to the DAC pins before. It's not the best, it's not the worst thing. Depending on your experience, it can be pretty hard. I had some 7 strand teflon SPC, and I got rid of the other 5 strands and soldered the other two strands to the pins. It's not fun, so use this method only if need be.

Have you checked out the first post? A lot of this information is there (and more, actually).
post #1828 of 2490
Good info regarding how you soldered direct from the dac, I have some 30awg wire in from navships I will be using, and agree, it looks incredibly awkward and difficult even soldering to the z caps and L2 and L3... I can but try though.

Yes, I've been on page 1 and your initial post but I do prefer to always bounce things off other people just to make sure I understand in my own mind I have it figured out ok. I am about ready to proceed when I get organised... fingers crossed lol and many thanks for your help and patience.
post #1829 of 2490
I've read as much of this thread as I can (including search) it's a big thread

I can't help but notice the original diymod, and a lot of the sq comparisons are wrt the 4g. iPod photo. Whilst my normal iPod is a 5.5g video, I was given a 4g from a friend and wrt the 5.5g, the sound of the 4g is really awful. Wether I use the hp or the lod, the 4g is rank imho. So I am not suprised to hear some bods raving about the diymod in these instances.
I use a lod on my 5.5g cw mini3 amp and the sound is fantastic, but this thread has me twitching and wondering.......
suspect the diference between a stock 5.5g and a diymod (both on the lod) may be subtle and best exploited by esoteric equipment

Comments on a direct comparison of the two would be good ..
*wonders of to the imod threads....)
post #1830 of 2490
Thread Starter 
I haven't encountered that much of a difference between the two. I think the 4G is a bit more bass-heavy with the 5.5G being more detailed, but it's been so long since I've compared the two that it's hard to say anymore. I don't ever remember it being that bad though. How long have you been listening to your 5.5G?
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Apple 30 GB iPod with Video Playback Black (5th Generation)
iPod Nano Headset Music Player
Apple iPod classic 160 GB Black (6th Generation) OLD MODEL
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