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$1 Million Cable Challenge Is On - Page 7

post #91 of 581
10/19/07 at 12:32am
I don't know. Then maybe I am crazy. I think I hear a difference-- AGAIN not better but a difference.

After thinking about it and becoming specific about terms I would not call what I hear through cables as a "sound signature" but a "sound essence".

Like I said -- maybe I am crazy.
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post #92 of 581
10/19/07 at 12:48am
i can tell the difference between my cables. no question about it. cables have sound signatures. if you spend enough time with them, you will be able to distinguish them. that's why A/B tests are BS. a quick A/B is useless and i doubt anyone (or at least most) could pick out any differences between not just cables but most headphones and amps - and we know that they sound different.
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post #93 of 581
10/19/07 at 1:16am
If the DBT article I read a while ago was correct, our auditory memory is around 5 seconds.
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post #94 of 581
10/19/07 at 1:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
i can tell the difference between my cables. no question about it. cables have sound signatures. if you spend enough time with them, you will be able to distinguish them. that's why A/B tests are BS. a quick A/B is useless and i doubt anyone (or at least most) could pick out any differences between not just cables but most headphones and amps - and we know that they sound different.
I completely agree. Sometimes the difference is hard to describe in words, but you know categorically what sounds good to you.

I often ask my wife to be a 'reasonable person'. I will ask her to listen to couple songs she likes with one cable and then switch the cable. I am only trying to see if she can hear a difference and not what sounds good to her My wife can care less about my stereo and hi-fi in general.
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post #95 of 581
10/19/07 at 1:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
i can tell the difference between my cables. no question about it. cables have sound signatures. if you spend enough time with them, you will be able to distinguish them. that's why A/B tests are BS. a quick A/B is useless and i doubt anyone (or at least most) could pick out any differences between not just cables but most headphones and amps - and we know that they sound different.
you could easily flash back and forth and hear differences with headphones. Cables are a much much much smaller difference but I do not agree with this I can memorize a sonic signature thing, no way. But I do agree that subtle changes are apparent if you place them in your system then live with them for a week and then take them out you'd notice.

The failure as a community is our hyperbole everything is wham shazzaam blammo huge difference when most things are shading and texure.
I mean come on I had a guy recommend a recable of a k1000 over a better amp and thought that would make a bigger difference. We have to get past the BS.
I am clearly a middle ground person yeah I think they make a difference and I have heard cables make a system none more so than a mini to mini on a portable rig but the headphones were the bigger change.

It would be cool if each side showed a bit of interest in the others side.
Overlord guy can you link to the article or at least give us a source.
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post #96 of 581
10/19/07 at 1:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spraggih View Post
Really you think so? I don't know- my head tells me someone could at least memorize the sound signature of a cable and then tell there was a difference-- not necessarily better but a difference-- especially if the tests were done days apart-- I think days apart because a sound signature gets into your head.
Too many other factors; ambient temperature/humidity, listener mood, non-identical warmup of all components, not to mention imperfect memory. It could never work this way. The only meaningful test has to be A/B or DBT in a controlled setting.
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post #97 of 581
10/19/07 at 1:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp11801 View Post
you could easily flash back and forth and hear differences with headphones. Cables are a much much much smaller difference but I do not agree with this I can memorize a sonic signature thing, no way. But I do agree that subtle changes are apparent if you place them in your system then live with them for a week and then take them out you'd notice.

The failure as a community is our hyperbole everything is wham shazzaam blammo huge difference when most things are shading and texure.
I mean come on I had a guy recommend a recable of a k1000 over a better amp and thought that would make a bigger difference. We have to get past the BS.
I am clearly a middle ground person yeah I think they make a difference and I have heard cables make a system none more so than a mini to mini on a portable rig but the headphones were the bigger change.

It would be cool if each side showed a bit of interest in the others side.
Overlord guy can you link to the article or at least give us a source.

You hit on exactly what a lot of people from the other side of the fence take issue with.

People recommending others drop hundreds on cables, when the cables would cost more than the persons amp/source.
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post #98 of 581
10/19/07 at 1:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp11801 View Post
I am clearly a middle ground person yeah I think they make a difference and I have heard cables make a system none more so than a mini to mini on a portable rig but the headphones were the bigger change.
Right on.. Cables do make differences, but it's a lot more fun and rewarding to roll tubes, or capacitors for example. I lump cables in with most tweaks, as long as it's decent quality it's not going to be a crucial component in the system. Ymmv

So for me Randi (who may be nuts) is at least exposing the ridiculous pricing audiophiles are conditioned to accept, for wire.
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post #99 of 581
10/19/07 at 7:41am

Common ground!

Do we all agree that cables do make a difference? It seems to me that Randi is saying all cables sound identical, which I think is contrary to the common wisdom here and is contrary to my experience as well.

If the $1M is for telling a 'difference', then I think Fremer is going to win. At least I hope so. That'll show 'em.
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post #100 of 581
10/19/07 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
I often ask my wife to be a 'reasonable person'. I will ask her to listen to couple songs she likes with one cable and then switch the cable. I am only trying to see if she can hear a difference and not what sounds good to her My wife can care less about my stereo and hi-fi in general.
Seems you don't get why DBTs were invented and are necessary.It doesn't matter if your wife cares about sound quality.She's influenced by your opinion on a subconscious level, and you don't have to voice your opinion.It's easily conveyed by nonverbal communication.
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post #101 of 581
10/19/07 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy View Post
Do we all agree that cables do make a difference?
Obviously not.
In fact all the studio guys I'm aquainted with don't believe in differences between reasonably constructed cables.That's their common wisdom.They never blow money for expensive cables.
This was the original motivation to perform my first DBT.
Funny is although I know I've failed to tell my my favorite >$300 TMR ICs apart from <$30 Tech&Link ICs the more expensive cables still do sound "better".
The whole affair did teach me a lot about the human mind.
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post #102 of 581
10/19/07 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp11801 View Post

The failure as a community is our hyperbole everything is wham shazzaam blammo huge difference when most things are shading and texure.
That's the main point for us sceptics, too.
Admittedly me failing in a DBT doesn't mean that there are no differences.
Naturally there are other listeners blessed with better hearing just as there are others that run faster than me.
It's the total BS that makes me upset.
Whenever a newbie complains about a disappointing experience with for instance a Senn HD650 you don't have to wait long for a clown recommending a $200 cable that will make a "night and day" difference.
That's expensive nonsense.If you don't like the basic sonic signature no cable will change this since it will make a subtle difference at best.
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post #103 of 581
10/19/07 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp11801 View Post
But I do agree that subtle changes are apparent if you place them in your system then live with them for a week and then take them out you'd notice.
Yes, but more than a week is needed to know how the cable sounds when mixed with other tweaks. It takes a lifetime to know it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp11801 View Post
I mean come on I had a guy recommend a recable of a k1000 over a better amp and thought that would make a bigger difference. We have to get past the BS.
When I replaced the Stefan AudioArt Hardwired K1000 cable with Nordost Valkyrja there was an improvement in soundstage size and bass texture because of the air dielectric, everything was smoother, more detailed and revealing. With amps I haven't heard any significant improvements, only different flavors. T-Amp had no bass which emphasized the detail. Krell power amp had only bass which made the details get lost in the background. Those two amps make bigger differences than cables but they don't give overall improvements. ICEpower amp is both of them combined but it has a shorter signal path which makes it sound cleaner and more revealing. The only real improvements I have heard with amps are from using vibration isolation, power conditioning and ERS Paper shielding. For me, amps sound the same when doing all those tweaks. It seems like amps have a different combination of those variables (EMI, vibration, AC noise, signal path), and that's why they sound so different.

It is better to remove a problem from the amp than to change one problem for another.
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post #104 of 581
10/19/07 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
The human brain has a very short term auditory memory. Within seconds, it becomes impossible to discern the difference between two very similar sounds. It's the same with color, even though visual memory is much longer than auditory memory. If you have two very slightly different colors, it's a lot easier to tell the difference by holding paint chips side by side than it would be to tell the difference between houses on opposite sides of the city painted those two colors.

I seriously doubt that cables *have* a sound signature. I think hciman77 is going to get to keep his ten spot.

See ya
Steve
If you put two different monkeys beside each other they look the same to me. But once I live with them for a few years they start looking different and I notice which is which even when they aren't beside each other.


Edit: Also if you put two identical monkeys beside each other, they look the same even with measurement devices. But once they start dancing around you notice they have a different style of dancing and the video cameras don't have high enough frame rates to capture the subtle differences.

Edit2: Also if you dress them up, they behave differently with different dresses.
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post #105 of 581
10/19/07 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy View Post
I'm rooting for Fremer.

I've heard differences in cables and I want to know that I'm not crazy or gullible.
The fact that the outcome of the test still matters to you should give you pause.


I wonder how many people went down the "better cables matter" road -before- they read or were told about how certain cables mattered. That is - completely from their own ears, not from social cues.
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