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Patrick's case: you guys mostly aren't acceptable! - Page 13

post #181 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
assuming Vin is a sawtooth wave of 60htz.
Why would you assume such an input, a sawtooth wave? No power cord will smooth that out anyway, so what are you aiming at? We are talking about normal operating ranges. Check the analogy again and let's stay on point, about the possible impact the power cord might have before an AC-DC regulated power supply.
post #182 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Smoothing caps in the powersection of an amp have huge impact on sound quality! The better the filtering, the cleaner the DC is for use in the amp itself.
Yeah, but thats after the AC is converted to DC and still has some ripple from the regulator. So yes power caps can have a large impact. I know they made a big difference for me with my portaphile and tread.

But I think they are talking about the AC line before its converted to DC.

Dirty DC can really muck up the sound.

But a decent power supply can produce great DC with even the dirtiest AC lines.
post #183 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
Yeah, but thats after the AC is converted to DC and still has some ripple from the regulator. So yes power caps can have a large impact. I know they made a big difference for me with my portaphile and tread.

But I think they are talking about the AC line before its converted to DC.

Dirty DC can really muck up the sound.

But a decent power supply can produce great DC with even the dirtiest AC lines.
Well, i had a good powersection, but after the mod, it was much better, still.

The only thing you can do before the filtering in the amp is to use an external passive filter or to use a regenerating powerplant. The latter one being most expensive.

I found out that after the mod, using the passive filter gave worse sound. I lost detail. So, the filtering in the amp is clearly better. Before forking out mucho dinero on filters, i would put my money towards a mod.

So, apperently, the filtering in the powersection of the amp is more efficient then passive filters.
post #184 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
You need to know to read between the lines, so you are not obviously one of them. But i agree, those numbers are a bit exaggerated; he just tries to tell us that the tweaks with those huge figures made the biggest difference in his sytem. If he didn't do that and ony used 1 or 2%, then the sceptics would say anyway, you see, it's sooo small. So, his figures just show there is a clearly audible difference.

There are still people in the middle. Not at both extremes!
Or his posts are meant to ridicule a certain tendency in high-end audio hobby, to exaggerate it to the point where it becomes unbelievable, absurd, almost artistically distorted.

In a way Patrick's opinions are so finely attuned to generating controversy that they are, in principle, capable of outraging believers and skeptics equally.
post #185 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
Why would you assume such an input, a sawtooth wave? No power cord will smooth that out anyway, so what are you aiming at? We are talking about normal operating ranges. Check the analogy again and let's stay on point, about the possible impact the power cord might have before an AC-DC regulated power supply.
I am trying to figure out how the shape of the wave effect the Vo. And whether the additional harmonics of the input have any effects on the output.

You like to make analogies, I just think making comparison between AC-DC converter and water boiler is a little elementary as in you fail to account for effects of various elements of the circuit have on the final output.

But even if you insist on working with black box model and assume black box is perfect, I still don't think you can make a fair comparison.

My reasoning is 1) Unlike water, electron does not flow, 2) unlike the boiler that is doing work on the water molecules, circuit is not doing work on the electrons, 3) The kind of energy that powers the boiler has little or no effect on the steam, yet the quality of Vdd, Vss effects the circuit performance and the output, 4) There is a specific point when steam is generated (>100C at sea level), but there is no specific point when DC is generated, and 5) all steam are identical (H20 molecule in gas form), but all DC generated are not equal (DC can be generated at different voltage).

So as you can see steam and DC are fundamentally different and cannot be used to make reasonable analogies.
post #186 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwojciec View Post
Or his posts are meant to ridicule a certain tendency in high-end audio hobby, to exaggerate it to the point where it becomes unbelievable, absurd, almost artistically distorted.

In a way Patrick's opinions are so finely attuned to generating controversy that they are, in principle, capable of outraging believers and skeptics equally.
As far as i know patrick, he surely wants to state that those tweaks made a huge impact on sound. Not to be sarcastic. But a more down to earth aproach would probably be more understandable to the mayority of head-fi.
post #187 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
I am trying to figure out how the shape of the wave effect the Vo. And whether the additional harmonics of the input have any effects on the output.

You like to make analogies, I just think making comparison between AC-DC converter and water boiler is a little elementary as in you fail to account for effects of various elements of the circuit have on the final output.

But even if you insist on working with black box model and assume black box is perfect, I still don't think you can make a fair comparison.

My reasoning is 1) Unlike water, electron does not flow, 2) unlike the boiler that is doing work on the water molecules, circuit is not doing work on the electrons, 3) The kind of energy that powers the boiler has little or no effect on the steam, yet the quality of Vdd, Vss effects the circuit performance and the output, 4) There is a specific point when steam is generated (>100C at sea level), but there is no specific point when DC is generated, and 5) all steam are identical (H20 molecule in gas form), but all DC generated are not equal (DC can be generated at different voltage).

So as you can see steam and DC are fundamentally different and cannot be used to make reasonable analogies.
Switching powercords had quite an impact on the sound of the amplifier.

going from stock cable to a very good custom made copper cable made quite an impact, cleaner sound and more detail. I also have a high end silverplated cable and between the silverplated and the pure copper cable is still quite a difference in sound. It is easally audible on my system.

It's a bit more complicated then that, you have to take into the equation; the differences in insulator, core (copper, silver, silverplated copper), crystal structure etc.

Steam is just steam, it doesn't have all these variables like a powercable has!
post #188 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
I just think making comparison between AC-DC converter and water boiler is a little elementary

So as you can see steam and DC are fundamentally different and cannot be used to make reasonable analogies.
Incredibly, you think it´s elementary and you failed to address the main point of the analogy. Of course steam and DC are very different things, and producing constant pressure vapor vs. producing stable DC are very different processes. The point of the analogy was to show how little impact the carrier of the inputs (pipe in the steamer, power cord in the power supply) might have in the overall quality of the output. This very essence of the analogy you have failed to address so far.
post #189 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Switching powercords had quite an impact on the sound of the amplifier.

going from stock cable to a very good custom made copper cable made quite an impact, cleaner sound and more detail. I also have a high end silverplated cable and between the silverplated and the pure copper cable is still quite a difference in sound. It is easally audible on my system.

It's a bit more complicated then that, you have to take into the equation; the differences in insulator, core (copper, silver, silverplated copper), crystal structure etc.

Steam is just steam, it doesn't have all these variables like a powercable has!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
Incredibly, you think it´s elementary and you failed to address the main point of the analogy. Of course steam and DC are very different things. The point of the analogy was to show how little impact the carrier of the inputs (pipe in the steamer, power cord in the power supply) might have in the overall quality of the output. This very essence of the analogy you have failed to address so far.
The very idea of comparing raw iron pipe where water flows through and a wire that is the medium where electrical energy propagate through cannot be more different.

Flow and propagation are 2 completely different concepts. When a wave is propagating through a medium, the interaction of the wave and the medium is extremely important. OTOH, the interaction between the substance that's flown through a conduit and the conduit itself is not so important.

<not to be rude, I assume you have at least some kind of science/engineering degree so we can carry on an intelligent discussion on this matter>
post #190 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
But a decent power supply can produce great DC with even the dirtiest AC lines.
Exactly. The caps in a power supply can certainly affect the ouput, because they are part of the regulatory mechanism, making sure the output stays constant. Different capacitors in the power supply (or different regulatory circuits as a whole) certainly might have a larger impact in the output DC than a different power cord before the power supply.

I think a power cord might have a perceivable impact only if the power supply is poorly built, and only in rather noisy environments. Granted that between the AC outlet and the power supply in a noisy environment, full of EMI and RFI, one power cord might bring dirtier AC (to this poorly power supply in the first place) than, for instance, a shielded power cord.
post #191 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
The very idea of comparing raw iron pipe where water flows through and a wire that is the medium where electrical energy propagate through cannot be more different
And you keep failing to see that the dramatic transformation going on after that part of the system, and the control mechanism keeping track of the stability of the output, is what makes that input part largely irrelevant; on both systems.

Anyway, I think the analogy is worthy, and once again, it´s there for anyone interested to ponder on it. Obviously it wasn´t just for you; don't waste your time on it if it doesn´t clarify anything to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
I assume you have at least some kind of science/engineering degree
You ought to check people´s public profiles when arguing with them wondering about their education.
post #192 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
The very idea of comparing raw iron pipe where water flows through and a wire that is the medium where electrical energy propagate through cannot be more different.

Flow and propagation are 2 completely different concepts. When a wave is propagating through a medium, the interaction of the wave and the medium is extremely important. OTOH, the interaction between the substance that's flown through a conduit and the conduit itself is not so important.
What's so different between the abstractions of "flow" or "propagation" that would render rsaavedra's analogy inappropriate? He merely shows that, in principle, a transfer and the resulting output can be regulated by a regulatory mechanism. He is not concerned with particular material properties of electricity or water, but with the design principle involved.
post #193 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
And you keep failing to see that the dramatic transformation going on after that part of the system, and the control mechanism keeping track of the stability of the output, is what makes that input part largely irrelevant, on both systems.

Anyway, I think the analogy is worthy, and once again, it´s there for anyone interested to ponder on it. Obviously it wasn´t just for you; don't waste your time on it if it doesn´t clarify anything to you.
ok..now we want to look at the control theory behind both cases. But unfortunately, even under the control theory, both black boxes cannot be fairly compared, let alone draw any meaningful analogy from it.

The concept of a boiler that keeps a constant pressure of steam necessitates the use of negative feedback in the control scheme. It is impossible to maintain the output unless one employs a negative feedback control.

OTOH, AC-DC circuit does not need to have a negative feedback control to regulate the DC output.

You have 2 systems one must have a negative feedback, the other does not necessarily need negative feedback; to say a negative feedback system is comparable to a system with no negative feedback wrt to the control system is purely unwarranted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
You ought to check people´s public profiles when arguing with them wondering about their education.
I am sorry computer science, as in programming, has no bearing on circuit design, circuit analysis; and I assume you have not gone through any rigorous training in circuits and emag. I can't program so I respect you nevertheless.

Now I see where you are coming up with these analogies. In computer science, and computer engineering, people like to make up analogies to better understand the architecture, e.g. FIFO, OOO engine, reshuffle buffer, etc. we EE don't usually like to make analogies, because it doesn't make any sense in the analog circuit design.
post #194 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwojciec View Post
What's so different between the abstractions of "flow" or "propagation" that would render rsaavedra's analogy inappropriate? He merely shows that, in principle, a transfer and the resulting output can be regulated by a regulatory mechanism. He is not concerned with particular material properties of electricity or water, but with the design principle involved.
because one is a wave, the other is not.
post #195 of 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
I am sorry computer science, as in programming, has no bearing on circuit design, circuit analysis; and I assume you have not gone through any rigorous training in circuits and emag. I can't program so I respect you nevertheless.
I´m the one who is sorry, but your talking about waves and other wave related things in the output DC suggested your background in electronics is pretty "rusty" to say the least.

And you made wrong assumptions. I did take a course on electronics and circuit design and circuit analysis. Granted, doesn´t mean I'm deeply knowledgeable about it though, as many others here truly are. That was quite a while ago, and I have no clear idea why the Dynahi is better than other circuits for instance. Right now I wouldn´t dare to present any circuit of my own that could even challenge a Cmoy

That doesn´t disqualify the analogy in any way, in my humble opinion. On the other hand, you keep ignoring the essence of the analogy, and you are not explaining how a different power cord could indeed have a large impact in the quality of the output DC of a regulated power supply.

To bring back some argumentation terms, your questioning my background seems like a desperate measure, seems it's leaning toward Ad Hominen, rather than addressing the arguments under discussion. When this happens it makes little sense to keep arguing.
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