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post #421 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkarth View Post
The thing for you to do would be to buy a cable from a company that offers a reasonable return policy, and try the new cable yourself. If you hear an improvement, keep it. If not, send it back.
Don't see why I'd need to do that, I already have two cables that I think sound rather different, and I like the Zu. What I want to do is to convince myself that I do hear the differences between the Zu and that other cable; that my brain is not being deceiftul to me despite all my conscious attempts to not let it. That's why I'd like to do the blind test myself.

Quote:
If you want to come to Portland, I will gladly let you listen to the Cardas vs the stock cable on your 650's.
Thanks! Will keep that in mind whenever I'm near Portland.
post #422 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
So you agree that your perception of your cables' sound is influenced by psychological factors.



Putting aside the fact that listening to music is not a sport, you also agree that your perception of the sound of your cables is affected by psychological factors.



They do no such thing. Can you point me to even one instance on Head-Fi where "skeptic" has "told a test subject to take a 10 hour blind test"?
No, sorry, as usual you misread my post. I said, that when i want to audition anything new, i make sure the conditions are the best possible! That's all.
post #423 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
Don't see why I'd need to do that, I already have two cables that I think sound rather different, and I like the Zu. What I want to do is to convince myself that I do hear the differences between the Zu and that other cable; that my brain is not being deceiftul to me despite all my conscious attempts to not let it. That's why I'd like to do the blind test myself.


Thanks! Will keep that in mind whenever I'm near Portland.
So, you do eventually believe in better cables then since the zu is NOT the standard cable yet you decided it is the best for you! If this is not clear to you, then what is?!
post #424 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
Don't see why I'd need to do that, I already have two cables that I think sound rather different, and I like the Zu. What I want to do is to convince myself that I do hear the differences between the Zu and that other cable; that my brain is not being deceiftul to me despite all my conscious attempts to not let it. That's why I'd like to do the blind test myself.


Thanks! Will keep that in mind whenever I'm near Portland.
I would be glad to help facilitate the blind test for you as well.
post #425 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
That is exactly what I wrote in another thread some time ago. The burden of proof is (methodologically speaking) in the person making the claim. Well that is, if that person cares about other people believing his claim. If he doesn't care, he can simply ignore that burden.

For the record, I do understand the skeptics point of view and comments, even though some of them might appear denigrating to some people.

The mind can be deceitful to ourselves. They are not saying you don't hear differences because I can't, so you shouldn't be able to either; the brain does think it is hearing differences. But the brain can be deceitful, that's their main point. That's why someone said "I don't trust my brain." There is true substance to that comment.

We do think the Moon looks bigger whenever it is near the horizon than when it is high up in the sky. It is easy to prove it isn't any larger when at the horizon, and every astronomer knows that it looks no larger there than high in the sky. Yet whenever we see the moon near the horizon, our cognitive machinery makes us think once again that it looks larger there. No matter how well we know it shouldn't look larger, our brain tells us it does, every single time.

This is why I am interested myself in checking whether I can differenciate my two HD650 cables, the Zu and the aftermarket I made. I don't think I would need 30-40 minutes in each comparison to distinguish the cables. In fact just playing the right music, and waiting for specific moments, I think I would need 3-4 minutes for each comparison. Yet, noone I've asked so far shows any interest in helping me on this. Basically because it is understandably boring for someone to go switching cables for about an hour or two behind my back while I listen to some stuff and take notes.

I don't have that at all, if i have anything new, i hear the differences immediatly within minutes, for the good or bad and it stays the same all the way down. So, the effect is permanent, either good or bad. Means the new cable, IC or whatever new is either better or worse then the equipment or cables i currently use. It is as simple as that.
post #426 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
So, you do eventually believe in better cables then since the zu is NOT the standard cable yet you decided it is the best for you! If this is not clear to you, then what is?!
Maybe you didn't read a previous post of mine. See again the example with the apparently larger Moon when it's at the horizon.

I do hear differences, but I'm also aware of the fact that the brain can be deceitful (I studied some Cognitive Science after all.) I'd like to make sure the differences I hear are actual differences, not my brain playing its sophisticated tricks, making me think the input has some differences that aren't actually there, as in the moon example.

I'm also aware of the fact that there could be room for both camps to be right. The brain could be playing tricks, yet there might also be some perfectly perceivable differences, at least by some.
post #427 of 452
Like it was already pointed out (by myself before, and several others) the burden of proof lies SOLELY on the person making the claim.

If the believer's say they are not trying to prove anything, why do they continue to post their ideas and "theories" that cables do make a difference?
post #428 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
If the believer's say they are not trying to prove anything, why do they continue to post their ideas and "theories" that cables do make a difference?
We could talk about experiences of perceiving the Moon to look so much larger today at the beach than yesterday at the city, things like that. Why would you have to assume that comments on such perceptual experiences are attempts to convince anyone that the Moon does look larger at the horizon than when high up in the sky?
post #429 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
That is completely out of line. I argue on point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
Like it was already pointed out (by myself before, and several others) the burden of proof lies SOLELY on the person making the claim.
If the believer's say they are not trying to prove anything, why do they continue to post their ideas and "theories" that cables do make a difference?


post #430 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
I'm not sure what you're responding to. I don't think that there is anything in my last post responding to one of your earlier points that was either overstated or less than civil.



Tourmaline did.
And i also gave my reasons why.

And i think, the more experienced audiophiles would agree with me. I have done blind testing before and i clearly could hear the differences and tell exactly what they did to the system. So, clearly i don't have to prove anything for myself. Do i have to prove anything for somebody else? certainly not.

Would i be willing to do a blind test in the envirement i posted about earlier, certainly. And as i stated before, i have done my share. Even to a point that an owner of an audio shop got pissed and told that i heard everything in a system. He couldn't take the bad news of systems or new equipment that didn't cut the cake.

On another event i came in an audioshop and the owner let me hear his amplifier, you have to know that i auditioned it before, so i pretty much knew how it sounded at that time, and played some music. Within minutes i told him he had done something to the amplier, since it sounded quite different! He then told me that he replaced the internal wiring! You cannot go blinder then that situation, unexpected test!
post #431 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
And i also gave my reasons why.

And i think, the more experienced audiophiles would agree with me. I have done blind testing before and i clearly could hear the differences and tell exactly what they did to the system. So, clearly i don't have to prove anything for myself. Do i have to prove anything for somebody else? certainly not.

Would i be willing to do a blind test in the envirement i posted about earlier, certainly. And as i stated before, i have done my share. Even to a point that an owner of an audio shop got pissed and told that i heard everything in a system. He couldn't take the bad news of systems or new equipment that didn't cut the cake.

On another event i came in an audioshop and the owner let me hear his amplifier, you have to know that i auditioned it before, so i pretty much knew how it sounded at that time, and played some music. Within minutes i told him he had done something to the amplier, since it sounded quite different! He then told me that he replaced the internal wiring! You cannot go blinder then that situation, unexpected test!
Don't ask me to cite references, because I can't off the top of my head, but I think it's something like less than 5% of the population have unusually acute hearing abilities like this. It's like any other gift, you can use it, abuse it, ignore it, or loose it. Like any other innate abilities we're born with, it doesn't make one person better than another person overall. That's why we're stronger together than alone. The whole is truly greater than the sum of its parts. Teamwork my friends. A true "Team" will always go farther than a band of indiviruals doing their own thing, no matter what their individual talents. In some endeavors, teamwork is obviously mandatory. In audiophillia, it's not a necessity, but we will all go much farther, much faster, together, than we will on our own. We can all learn from one another.

Some equipment is more revealing of differences than others. Some individuals' hearing better able to identify subtle sonic differences than others. Some of the ability can be learned, but some is innate. You either have it or you don't. If you have it, you can train it to be of further value to you.

A good spotter can, by natural hearing alone, identify range, direction, and elevation of a report or other sound sometimes better than any instrumentation in adverse field conditions. You're born with that ability, but then you have to train and develop it.

As a photographer, in the old days, I learned how to develop my ability to accurately judge distances. We were shooting with wire frame 4x5 cameras. You could get awesome action/spontaneous photos by setting your distance and exposure values before hand, then in a large venue you could hang out on the sidelines, and when your gut told you that action might be about to take place, you could start walking towards it and when your preset distance exactly coincided with the developing action you could fire away, and you were all set. No fiddling with focus and exposure values, you could just concentrate on the action and framing it properly, etc.

Much of that technique was taught/learned, but if I didn't have stereophonic vision to start with, there would no use training for that skill. It just wouldn't happen.

So we have to be aware of our abilities and limits and work within that envelope to maximize benefit.

Then if we work together/cooperate with one another and rely on someone else who has strengths where we have weaknesses, and they, us, our combined effort is far more powerful than all of us working as individuals. Ego's have no place in this sort of co-op society. Honor and personal integrity do.
post #432 of 452
No one is forcing anyone to read my posts. Feel free to cheerfully skip on by them. But whether you want to read my posts or not, it doesn't change the fact that my participation here has a value. Just because it doesn't have value to you, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have value to others.

I always try to comment on the merits of someone's points, not comment on the merits of the person themselves. Respect begets respect. If you want to keep civil discussion going, you'll want to do the same.

See ya
Steve
post #433 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkarth View Post
Don't ask me to cite references, because I can't off the top of my head, but I think it's something like less than 5% of the population have unusually acute hearing abilities like this. It's like any other gift, you can use it, abuse it, ignore it, or loose it. Like any other innate abilities we're born with, it doesn't make one person better than another person overall. That's why we're stronger together than alone. The whole is truly greater than the sum of its parts. Teamwork my friends. A true "Team" will always go farther than a band of indiviruals doing their own thing, no matter what their individual talents. In some endeavors, teamwork is obviously mandatory. In audiophillia, it's not a necessity, but we will all go much farther, much faster, together, than we will on our own. We can all learn from one another.

Some equipment is more revealing of differences than others. Some individuals' hearing better able to identify subtle sonic differences than others. Some of the ability can be learned, but some is innate. You either have it or you don't. If you have it, you can train it to be of further value to you.

A good spotter can, by natural hearing alone, identify range, direction, and elevation of a report or other sound sometimes better than any instrumentation in adverse field conditions. You're born with that ability, but then you have to train and develop it.

As a photographer, in the old days, I learned how to develop my ability to accurately judge distances. We were shooting with wire frame 4x5 cameras. You could get awesome action/spontaneous photos by setting your distance and exposure values before hand, then in a large venue you could hang out on the sidelines, and when your gut told you that action might be about to take place, you could start walking towards it and when your preset distance exactly coincided with the developing action you could fire away, and you were all set. No fiddling with focus and exposure values, you could just concentrate on the action and framing it properly, etc.

Much of that technique was taught/learned, but if I didn't have stereophonic vision to start with, there would no use training for that skill. It just wouldn't happen.

So we have to be aware of our abilities and limits and work within that envelope to maximize benefit.

Then if we work together/cooperate with one another and rely on someone else who has strengths where we have weaknesses, and they, us, our combined effort is far more powerful than all of us working as individuals. Ego's have no place in this sort of co-op.
BUT, on a headphone rig, you can enjoy or critically listen to music on an individual basis.

i also find it easier to hear "subtle" differences on a good headphone rig then with speaker setups( accoustical problems etc.) Only on very expensive speakers rig, you also can hear differences quite easally, but let me assure you, they are a magnitude more expensive then a good headphone rig!

One other thing; you can only learn something IF you are willing to learn!
post #434 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
Like it was already pointed out (by myself before, and several others) the burden of proof lies SOLELY on the person making the claim.

If the believer's say they are not trying to prove anything, why do they continue to post their ideas and "theories" that cables do make a difference?
"They." "Them." "Believers."

Lots of generalizations. Lots of negativity (in most of your recent posts).

What are your intentions here? What are you trying to prove?

You probably couldn't care less, but I'm beginning to think you're a troll.
post #435 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkarth View Post

definitions snipped...
Can you post one for "sophist"?
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