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Corda MOVE shortcomings - Page 6

post #76 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsborken View Post
Sure you do, describe what you hear honestly; that's all that is expected. Not everyone is an expert, but everyone's opinion adds to the overall value of Head-fi. Happy listening.
True, but I don't have much to compare too. Since I'm new to this I'm sure what I hear will be better than everything else I've heard so far . So, as I'm not in a super rush to get an ibasso, I think it would benefit people more if someone else who has a move could compare the two directly.

And once I start learning more and accumulate more equipment I'll be happy to share my opinions.
post #77 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by dw6928 View Post
Magnanimous gesture, especially for someone relatively new to the Forums. I salute you. Where are you located?
Vermont, USA (I add USA cause a lot of people think it's Canada )
post #78 of 137
Green Mountain boy. Went to school in Northern Mass. (High School). I have the Move and am quite fond of it.
post #79 of 137
Very sorry if I came across as condescending, apologies, and of course reading back through it now I see what you're saying. I think it was mainly a matter of not being clear in my comments and admittedly of being defensive myself; for instance when I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by facelvega View Post
there are people here who can tell me, and any others with my concerns.
I meant you guys, certainly including itsborken and mrarroyo, whose posts I often read for advice and opinion on this kind of issue. I'm just trying to lure you or anyone else who might have the urge to make some specific tests and comments on this matter, namely, whether there is an audible limit to the Move's detail on USB, a limit the D1 doesn't have. I believe I've read most or all of your posts on this, and unless I've missed something neither of you has gone into detail on this particular matter, though mrarroyo certainly has the experience to do so and itsborken has come as close as anyone to answering my concerns in post 59 above. Hey, my ears aren't in play here at all, I'm actually hoping to rely on your ears to answer my concerns.

Here's what I think would show this most easily: 4 short tests, one of each amp with a reasonably high end external source (multiple external sources would be better to dodge any synergy issues), and then one of each on its own dac, to show if SQ noticeably improves or diminishes in comparison to the external control. Essentially koto-in's idea but using the external dac for both portables. Namely, my fears would be confirmed if the move was better with an external dac, and the D1 was just as good with its own dac, or they would be dissolved if this wasn't the case.

In light of this idea, though, itsborken's experience with the opera and the move is disconcerting, as it sounds like they just didn't gel. I guess the source for my planned test would have to have a non-preamped line out (or at least one without gain), though even so it might be that I'm just hoping for the impossible, and results would vary depending on which dac was serving as control.

Hopefully you're intrigued enough and not too peeved with me to give it a quick shot if you have a few minutes to spare! best, FV
post #80 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by dw6928 View Post
Green Mountain boy. Went to school in Northern Mass. (High School). I have the Move and am quite fond of it.
Yeah, "I'm a Vermonta, I do what I wanta".

What I really like about the ibasso D1 is the versatility, especially the optical line in, cause I have a H140. If the SQ is comparable between the D1 and the move I'd just soon get the ibasso cause of the extra outputs.
post #81 of 137
Dear headfellows,

Just a few remarks with respect to some technical skepticism shown:

> 16 bit versus 24 bit

USB with standard Windows drivers does not allow 24 bit output. 16 Bit only! There only is a benefit with 24 bit resolution with S/PDIF data (provided you have the software with this high a resolution! CD only offers 16 bit!).

> 100dB dynamic range vs. 129dB;

16 bit resolution implies a maximum theoretical dynamic range of 98 dB. If the converter has better resolution it simply means that quantization noise will be larger than the resolution of the converter. 129dB is only of interest using 24 bit data.

> distortion of 0.002 percent vs. 0.0004;

The distortion of a headphone driver easily surpasses 0.01 percent. Also the amplification circuitry adds a substantial amount.

Also, using a small trick, in the MOVE it was managed to make sound of teh PCM2704 much better than in the recommended standard implementation as shown in the specifications sheet of this IC.

> sampling rates up to 48kHz vs. 200kHz.

USB with standard Windows drivers does not allow sampling rates higher than 48 kHz!

Measurement data are important while evaluating audio equipment. However, proper interpretation of these data is even more important!

Cheers

Jan
post #82 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Meier View Post
Dear headfellows,

Just a few remarks with respect to some technical skepticism shown:

> 16 bit versus 24 bit

USB with standard Windows drivers does not allow 24 bit output. 16 Bit only! There only is a benefit with 24 bit resolution with S/PDIF data (provided you have the software with this high a resolution! CD only offers 16 bit!).

> 100dB dynamic range vs. 129dB;

16 bit resolution implies a maximum theoretical dynamic range of 98 dB. If the converter has better resolution it simply means that quantization noise will be larger than the resolution of the converter. 129dB is only of interest using 24 bit data.

> distortion of 0.002 percent vs. 0.0004;

The distortion of a headphone driver easily surpasses 0.01 percent. Also the amplification circuitry adds a substantial amount.

Also, using a small trick, in the MOVE it was managed to make sound of teh PCM2704 much better than in the recommended standard implementation as shown in the specifications sheet of this IC.

> sampling rates up to 48kHz vs. 200kHz.

USB with standard Windows drivers does not allow sampling rates higher than 48 kHz!

Measurement data are important while evaluating audio equipment. However, proper interpretation of these data is even more important!

Cheers

Jan
The D1 has a 24 bit DAC since it has an optical/coax input, but unless the input data is 24 bit, the data stream (from CD derived data) will still be 16 bit. Since the MOVE only has USB input, it doesn't need more than a 16 bit DAC. This is clear in the specs for the Opera:

Quote:
Sampling frequencies / resolution
8..96 kHz / 16, 20, 24 bit (S/PDIF)
32, 44.1, 48 kHz / 16 bit (USB)
The implementation of the DAC circuitry, particularly in coordination with its respective amp as a single design, should be the much more definitive factor in determining the quality of the sound output than the DAC chip itself. So headfellows, let your ears be the judge!
post #83 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Meier View Post
Dear headfellows,

Just a few remarks with respect to some technical skepticism shown:
Yes, certainly for redbook and for most normal mp3 listening the technicalities I keep pointing to are a moot point, people! I'm talking about the last bit of potential to be squeezed out of the system, not really a night and day difference. It's the kind of difference audio people obsess about, but for the kind of normal use Jan mentions, it's not so big an issue. Let's be clear on that.
post #84 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by facelvega View Post
Yes, certainly for redbook and for most normal mp3 listening the technicalities I keep pointing to are a moot point, people! I'm talking about the last bit of potential to be squeezed out of the system, not really a night and day difference. It's the kind of difference audio people obsess about, but for the kind of normal use Jan mentions, it's not so big an issue. Let's be clear on that.
The point is that with 16 bit data there is no potential there.

If you are listening to 24 bit data, such as from SACD or DVD-Audio, then it might make sense to insist on a 24 bit DAC. But remember we are talking about a portable device here and the DAC implementation in the 24 bit SACD/DVD Audio player is likely, but not necessarily, better than in the portable amp.

The bottom line is that the mere presence of a 24 bit DAC does not automatically ensure better sound quality. Other factors are much more critical and it is quite possible that a DAC/amp with a 16 bit DAC may in fact sound better.
post #85 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by facelvega View Post
Very sorry if I came across as condescending, apologies, and of course reading back through it now I see what you're saying. I think it was mainly a matter of not being clear in my comments and admittedly of being defensive myself; for instance when I said
Not a problem, I was getting a bit defensive myself on some previous messages. Its not like I can rewind the iBasso back to 100 hours of burn in. If not for HiFlight and jamato8's recommendation that it needed more burn-in I'd have sold it at that point.

Quote:
...whether there is an audible limit to the Move's detail on USB, a limit the D1 doesn't have.
Both USB implementations sound equivalent to me. I believe it is not a limitation in the Move or D1 but rather Redbook or USB itself as the limiting factor. The differences I hear are in the opamp choices.

Quote:
Here's what I think would show this most easily: 4 short tests, one of each amp with a reasonably high end external source (multiple external sources would be better to dodge any synergy issues), and then one of each on its own dac, to show if SQ noticeably improves or diminishes in comparison to the external control. Essentially koto-in's idea but using the external dac for both portables. Namely, my fears would be confirmed if the move was better with an external dac, and the D1 was just as good with its own dac, or they would be dissolved if this wasn't the case.
I've had a busy weekend and haven't gotten the chance to do any of this. I'll return the D1 to stock configuration so that the information is accurate.

Quote:
In light of this idea, though, itsborken's experience with the opera and the move is disconcerting, as it sounds like they just didn't gel.
It was the stock D1 into the move that didn't gel at 100 hours. As far as what I said about the Opera vs D1 DAC the other night, that was a few minute initial impression; I probably should not have said anything about it at all until I listened to several tracks from several genres. Such a off-the-cuff observation isn't fair to anyone, listeners or either vendor.

Well, the sooner I get my other obligations done the sooner I can look into this.
post #86 of 137
Fantastic news that you're willing to take a look at this, itsborken, much appreciated. I'm coming around to the importance of the opamp in all this, as you've been pointing out; the four different opamps in the amps I have on hand all sound very distinct (OPA2134, LM6171/2, AD8610/20, and OPA2107), with the 2107 in particular far from the sound of the others.
post #87 of 137
Thread Starter 
Is it important to use an AC adapter with the MOVE? I'm using it for desktop use only, so I don't really need it to be portable so will the AC adapter fully improve the sound signature of the MOVE?
post #88 of 137
my experience is that the improvement is negligible at best.
post #89 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by souperman View Post
Is it important to use an AC adapter with the MOVE? I'm using it for desktop use only, so I don't really need it to be portable so will the AC adapter fully improve the sound signature of the MOVE?
The voltage doubling negates the sonic differences from the previous MkIII model. Still, USB powered 10v vs wall 24v will provide a little amplification that may help drive hungry HP better. If you are going to run it off of rechargables or throwaway batteries you are comparing 18 to 24v which is pretty close.

I run it in my office except when I'm traveling so a wall wart there makes economic (and less hassle fussing with batteries) sense.
post #90 of 137
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsborken View Post
The voltage doubling negates the sonic differences from the previous MkIII model. Still, USB powered 10v vs wall 24v will provide a little amplification that may help drive hungry HP better. If you are going to run it off of rechargables or throwaway batteries you are comparing 18 to 24v which is pretty close.

I run it in my office except when I'm traveling so a wall wart there makes economic (and less hassle fussing with batteries) sense.
I was planning on just driving it from the USB port. I have a pair of 580's, pk1, and MS1's I'm going to be using with it.
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