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D2000, DX1000, Edition 9: A Comparison - Page 2

post #16 of 103
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the great response, all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk005 View Post
Would you consider a D-2000 recable as an option to deepen the bass and make the overall presentation more transparent?
I've never had a set of headphones recabled so I wouldn't know what to expect. My problem is I don't want to do without the cans while they are recabled. Others have had theirs recabled so maybe they can chime in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
are you sure they use the same drivers. do you know if the D5000s are more closely matched. your understanding is that just the cable and wooden housing are the difference between the two.
If you look at the specs for the Dx000 series the specs for the D2000 and D5000 drivers are exactly the same and the D1000 is different. The cables are also described differently between the 2000 and 5000. That's what I based my opinion on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
would you say that the bass is overpowering. that it takes away from the mids and highs. this seems to be a repeated complaint against this headphone.
No, not overpowering. I can turn the EQ off on most songs with no problem but if I listen to something with a exaggerated bass line I dial it back so I can enjoy the rest of the sound spectrum. It also depends on my mood. If I want to really bounce in my chair I just let it all hang out. It's nice to have that option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda View Post
do you think the ed.9 is overall worth its price of $1000+ i am considering acquiring one, but not sure. i'm not really a basshead either.
Wow, there are so many considerations to take into account when making that decision. Obviously I thought it was worth the cash to try and find my final set of headphones and I think I have. (Famous last Head-Fi words, right?) It's a common saying that you spend 90% of your money to get the last 10% of perfection, so I guess the Edition 9 falls into that category. It depends on how hard you are to please and how nuts you are to find perfection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecala View Post
Hardwired, I enjoyed reading your review although I have some questions.
Firstly, can you discuss the detail retrieval abilities between the JVCs and the Denons.
Secondly a note or two regarding the cable of the three( I know you mentioned the Denons).
Thirdly, what genre of music do you use to evaluate each phone.
Lastly, can you rate if possible the value of each phone. i.e. the subjective improvement in quality verses the increase in price. e.g. the Ultrazone cost some 40% more than the JVCs, is the cost of the improvement justified?

Thanks.
To me, the detail capabilities are tightly coupled with the treble energy. Not completely, but to a large degree the treble response determines how much detail headphones can reproduce. The Denon is at a disadvantage to the JVC in that respect, and the JVC doesn't measure up to the Edition 9. The Denons are adequate, the JVCs are better, and the 9s are stellar.

The JVC cable is the best of the 3. It's longer (like 10 feet or so), thicker, and more flexible, and covered with a nylon sheath. The Ultrasone cable is better than the Denon but it has no sheath and is bare plastic insulation.

I use these songs when I want to compare haeadphone capabilities:
  • Liquid Tension Experiment - Osmosis : soundstage and detail
  • Joe Satriani - Champagne? : bass and tonal balance
  • Joe Satriani - Time : bass extension
  • Vicious Delicious - Suliman : response speed
  • The Yellowjackets - Greenhouse : classical/jazz
  • Dream Theater - Home : favorite song/group
  • Andy Timmons - Deliver Us : electric guitar
And I have to give you the same answer I gave vcoheda about the value. It all depends on how much it is worth to you for slightly better sound than your current headphones. I think the Denons have the best bang for the buck with larger price differences for slightly better sound as you go up the chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundinista View Post
The Edition 9 goes deeper in the bass than the JVC? I thought the JVC had shown me the bottom of the well! Are you sure that impression doesn't come from a louder mid-bass?
Yes, after listening to the JVCs I wouldn't have believed it either. I use the Joe Satriani song Time to test bass extension. There is a bass bloom around the 8-second mark that comes from the deepest pits of hell and is the best test I've found of bass extension. The JVCs did it justice but the Edition 9s wanted to vibrate off my head. The Edition 9 bass can go so deep it approaches subwoofer characteristics. I know, you don't believe me.
post #17 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundinista View Post

The Edition 9 goes deeper in the bass than the JVC?
So, Soundinista, are you tempted to be Ultrasoned?
post #18 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundinista View Post

The Edition 9 goes deeper in the bass than the JVC? .
I wonder they compare to Darth Beyers? Anybody?
post #19 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundinista View Post
The Edition 9 goes deeper in the bass than the JVC? I thought the JVC had shown me the bottom of the well!
I can attest to this as well. The Edition 9's bass is strong all the way down to as deep as I've come across in a recording. It's also much tighter and punchier than the DX1000's bass. The DX1000 sounded muffled to me. It lacked the kick of the Edition 9.
post #20 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverrain View Post
I wonder they compare to Darth Beyers? Anybody?
I actually MEASURED the bass response of Darth Beyers and the DX1000 using the Stereophile test CD and my RS SPL meter. The Darth Beyers don't go much below 35 Hz or so, although they are very strong down to that point. The JVC's measure very strong down to 20Hz, which I thought was very impressive, although right in line with what I expected.

You absolutely cannot tell how deep headphones go by playing music, because there is incredibly little music content below 40 Hz. You really have to measure to know. It could be the Edition 9's have more bass down to 35 Hz, with an excellent quality to it, but do not actually reach as low as the JVC. I am not saying this IS the case, but rather that without actually measuring it, we won't know.
post #21 of 103
Great point Rob. Even if a headphone can reproduce 20Hz., it's not very often that you'll find any information on a CD in that frequency range. The cannons in the 1812 Overture possibly or Pipe Organ music. Most likely most of us are going to feel that more than hear it at any rate, and headphones can't move that kind of air.
post #22 of 103
You know, Cecala, as a matter of principle, I'm always tempted by anything that gets the nod from level-headed, knowledgeable, ultra-demanding audiophiles like Hardwired and a number of others here at Head-Fi. Sometimes, however, the inconvenience seems simply overwhelming to me. (Haven't yet gone down the tubes, for instance. The thought of babysitting those valves is more than I can bear. The combination of hypnotic glow and enthusiastic reviews alone won't drag me into it as long as there is affordable solid state gear offering comparable performance. But I haven't had the opportunity to listen to good tubed equipment. So, conversion is not ruled out. I'm just firmly skeptical for now.) For me, in headphone terms, "inconvenience" means low build quality and/or comfort level. For what they offer in that regard, they've priced the Edn. 9 beyond temptation for me. I haven't had the chance to put them on my head yet. But reliable reviewers assure me that the Ultrasone's are no match for what I already have as far as build quality/comfort. So, I very much doubt I'd be happy with such a huge investment.

That's the reason why I've also steered clear of the Grado GS-1000. These were much more tempting to me than the Edn. 9, because of the promise of comfort and a huge soundstage. But there is a serious build quality issue here as well. The thought of shelling out a grand for sponges and for those annoying rods was ultimately more than I could bear.

Speaking of Grado, I'm happy to see that they are beginning to address their comfort issues. I've always thought that the Grado people were geniuses for getting away with such low build quality/comfort standards. But the truth is, they've had a lot of help from the hi-fi press. Five short years ago, Robert Reina, a reviewer whom I respect, btw, gave the Grado SR125 a glowing review in Stereophile. Believe it or not, he wrote that the SR125 were the most comfortable phones he had ever used. I had the SR125 for nine long years. They always felt like torture instruments on my head! And I certainly don't mean to imply that Reina was insincere. It's just that the standards of the audio press for headphones have been so low that the claim didn't seem at all absurd to either Reina or the Stereophile editor, John Atkinson. Another example: Hi-Fi Choice calls the GS-1000 the greatest headphones under the sun (or words to that effect). Have they bothered comparing it to the likes of the JVC DX1000 and the Edn. 9? Their "Buyer's Bible" doesn't even acknowledge the existence of these phones!

Things have changed, as we know. Head-Fi is putting this industry under the microscope and keeping it on its toes. Reviews like the one that started this thread will do us all a lot of good. Keep at it, guys!
post #23 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundinista View Post
For me, in headphone terms, "inconvenience" means low build quality and/or comfort level. For what they offer in that regard, they've priced the Edn. 9 beyond temptation for me. I haven't had the chance to put them on my head yet. But reliable reviewers assure me that the Ultrasone's are no match for what I already have as far as build quality/comfort.
Is there a consensus on the comfort/dis-comfort of the Edition 9s? If they're comfortable, how comfortable? Beyer comfortable? 650 comfortable? SR-325 comfortable? Crown of thorns comfortable? And if they're uncomfortable then how and how extremely?

I'm with those above who take comfort to be a serious concern in a 1200 - 1500.00 headphone. But I'd like to hear from more Ed 9 owners about their experiences with long-term comfort (or not!) on these phones. I'm happy to make this a new thread rather than sidetrack this one.

And a GREAT review, Hardwired! I really feel like I know more about the phones under review, their strengths and compromises, after reading it. Kudos!

best,

o
post #24 of 103
The Edition 9 headband pressure can be relieved is you bend the headband with strength holding it in the center, and not by the plastic sides the steel blade will eventually give up a little bit...about the pads we have a mod but it will or not work depending on the ears, for me it worked wonders...the is my only beef with the Ultrasones, they still should work in the comfort issues a little more...to make it... (perfect?... )
post #25 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post
You absolutely cannot tell how deep headphones go by playing music, because there is incredibly little music content below 40 Hz. You really have to measure to know. It could be the Edition 9's have more bass down to 35 Hz, with an excellent quality to it, but do not actually reach as low as the JVC. I am not saying this IS the case, but rather that without actually measuring it, we won't know.
You have a good point. I went by what I heard which is probably how LOUD the 9s are at a certain frequency compared to the JVCs and if they are louder it could masquerade as deeper extension. Using the same song and listening to the HD650s and K701s I realized the 701s had deeper extension than the 650s, so I assumed it would work for other cans. I would be interested in what an SPL meter tells me, but I no longer have the JVCs to compare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundinista View Post
You know, Cecala, as a matter of principle, I'm always tempted by anything that gets the nod from level-headed, knowledgeable, ultra-demanding audiophiles like Hardwired and a number of others here at Head-Fi.
Lol, thanks for the compliment, but I read that to my wife and she just said "well, you certainly are ultra-demanding". Compared to some folks around here I'm just a noob poseur.
post #26 of 103
The Ultrasone can go as low as 20Hz, and lower with authority, I have a CD here with test tones, and you can hear it...actually that is true that they is a little material below 40HZ, but what noobdy says I that there are harmonics that you feel from other closer freqs, and if the driver cuts them out you will feel it...
post #27 of 103
Pipe organs with 32' pipes can go below 20hz. The best I've heard for sub 20 hz sound might surprise some folks. (haven't yet heard the Ed9's)

This is not "bass slam" or bass loudness, but real useable bass depth. Here they are in order from best to worst. There may be others, but these are the ones I know well:

HD280 The absolute clearest lowest bass I've heard, even though these are not known at all for bass.
AD2000 Runner up
D2000 Darned good as well, nearly tied with AD2000
DX1000 Pretty good, but not as great as they are often made out to be
DT880 Goes very deep but soft down there
AD700 Same as DT880
K701 Same as DT880

The old Stax SR-5 go pretty deep as well, but only with serious EQing. The HD650, HD600 & K601 really don't go this deep at all, and the HD555 and K501 don't even register at all much below 40 hz.
post #28 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundinista View Post
.

That's the reason why I've also steered clear of the Grado GS-1000.
I recently tried the Grado GS-1000 phones and while sonically pleasing, the comfort problem was I thought a disgrace. People here have vaxed lyrical about their comfort. I could not wait to take them off and wanted to throw them at the sales person who said "they were the best headphones in the world"(Guess what, he only sells Grado). I agree with you whole heartedly about paying $1000 for sponges. Even if I could purchase them for half the price I would still refuse-Sorry Grado fans. Comfort should be taken for granted once you pass the $500 dollar mark, not be an option. The edition 9s to me in photos look somewhat cheap, sure the pads and driver housing look wonderful and high grade but the headband looks like Lego made it and for 1500 dollars, is asking for far to much. Even if the sound coming from the Ultrasones is mind bending, whats the point if you need to take them off after a mere 10 mins.(Maybe that's the point, to much of a good thing might hurt you).


By the way I have posted this image elsewhere, its a cut shot of the JVC driver housing.
post #29 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecala View Post
I recently tried the Grado GS-1000 phones and while sonically pleasing, the comfort problem was I thought a disgrace. People here have vaxed lyrical about their comfort. I could not wait to take them off and wanted to throw them at the sales person who said "they were the best headphones in the world"(Guess what, he only sells Grado). I agree with you whole heartedly about paying $1000 for sponges. Even if I could purchase them for half the price I would still refuse-Sorry Grado fans. Comfort should be taken for granted once you pass the $500 dollar mark, not be an option. The edition 9s to me in photos look somewhat cheap, sure the pads and driver housing look wonderful and high grade but the headband looks like Lego made it and for 1500 dollars, is asking for far to much. Even if the sound coming from the Ultrasones is mind bending, whats the point if you need to take them off after a mere 10 mins.(Maybe that's the point, to much of a good thing might hurt you).
The comfort is not an issue for everybody with the Ultrasones, for me it is not right now...
Also they do not look cheap at all, once you own them, and you have them in your hands, they are heavy, and once you use them for a while you realized that they are not alike to other cheap solutions you find around, even while they look quite similar, the material use is different quality...

I suggest that you reserve the last verdict for the Ultrasones till you try them, ans listen them, and use them in your head...

The same happen to me with the Grados, to me they are unbearable, for others they can use them for hours...all depends on what you like, I will not consider never any supraural headphone, as the headphone touching my ears bother me, the main reason I do not use too much the Portapros...
post #30 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller View Post
Also they do not look cheap at all, once you own them, and you have them in your hands, they are heavy, and once you use them for a while you realized that they are not alike to other cheap solutions you find around, even while they look quite similar, the material use is different quality...
I did state that my impression was solely based upon viewing photos posted here and elsewhere. Obviously ultimate decision is made in the flesh as it were.
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